Game Politics ([info]gamepolitics) wrote,
@ 2006-09-17 08:48:00
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Entry tags:calgary sun, dawson college, editorials, game violence, kimveer gill, licia corbella, mike strobel, montreal, school shootings, steve tilley, violent games

Editorial Roundup: Canadian Papers Weigh in on Montreal Rampage

As the smoke begins to clear on last week's school shooting at Montreal's Dawson College, Canadian media pundits are offering opinions on the relationship between violent video games and the rampage. In the Calgary Sun, columnist Licia Corbella writes:

"You are what you eat. Garbage in, garbage out... if you consume violence, you will be violent... Kimveer Gill practiced what he preached... He acted out on the music he listened to, the games he played... His favourite video game was Super Columbine Massacre RPG..."

"In a fascinating, if not utterly maddening interview... (Super Columbine designer Danny) Ledonne calls his disgraceful, exploitative game 'art' and 'social commentary' ...That someone who would create a 'game' so cruel, insensitive and immoral can then speak of morals is galling and hypocritical in the extreme."

"Is Ledonne partly responsible for Wednesday's mayhem? Legally, no. But what about morally?
"

A different viewpoint, also in the Calgary Sun, is expressed by game writer Steve Tilley:

"To many people born before 1970, video games are as foreign and frightening as German opera... when I see video games fingered as the cause of real-world violence, I sigh and shake my head..."

"I have played every violent game named in (Kimveer Gill's blog), including Super Columbine Massacre... Some of them I've enjoyed greatly... Others I recognize as puerile, offensive time-wasters... But none of them have given me the desire to do harm to anyone, anywhere, ever."

"I'm the rule, not the exception. Kimveer Gill was the exception. Harris and Klebold were the exceptions. So go ahead, ban all hyper-violent video games on the off chance they might fall into the hands of someone already predisposed to do harm. Then ban the ones that involve any sort of gunplay. After that, just to be safe, ban any games that don't star fluffy pink bunnies."

"Then we can move on to violent movies (so long, Goodfellas), television (seeya, 24) and even books. What a safe, wonderful and tragedy-free world it will be then...
"

Journalist Mike Strobel weighs in with:

"...How many times must a video game turn up as evidence at a crime scene before we wake up?

"Dawson College is the latest. Killer Kimveer Gill was a fan of Super Columbine Massacre, a lovely bit of Internet fun... What does Tahir Khan have in common with Dawson College, you ask? ...(in 2005) he was dead, his taxi crushed by a Mercedes allegedly engaged in a street race. Cops found the video game Need For Speed in the wreckage. A court will decide if it played a role."

"...Alabama, where Devin Moore, 18, slew three troopers after being pulled over in a stolen car. "Life is like a video game," he said later. "You've got to die sometime." Huh? Wait a minute! That's what Kimveer Gill used to say. Only, young Devin's game of choice was Grand Theft Auto."

"Remember Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold? ...They played Doom, Redneck Rampage and Duke Nukem. Hmm, do you think video games had anything to do with that slaughter? Or the new one in Montreal?"

"...As a newspaper man, I cringe at talk of censorship. But free speech has limits. Otherwise, Nazis would flourish anew. Racists. Snuff films. When New Zealand and Australia banned Manhunt, those nations did not fall into the sea...
"

In the Waterloo Record, Michael Redfearn writes:

"...to blame this madness on video games like Super Massacre at Columbine, heavy metal music, goth culture or warped websites -- as morally depraved as they all may be -- is to miss the point. These pop culture villains... do not even begin to explain the complexity of the underlying causes of such mind-boggling, anti-social behaviour... This human tendency to identify easy targets, find simplistic answers and avoid personal responsibility at all costs will no doubt continue.

...Yet rather than focus on meaningful intervention strategies to assist alienated youth in their struggle for acceptance, which takes time, effort and resources, it's easier to point accusing fingers at familiar targets...
"




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Well...
[info]elixer44
2006-09-17 01:28 pm UTC (link)
If we're going to talk of banning games, we might as well do books and movies too, just to make sure we're all safe.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Well...
[info]gamepolitics
2006-09-17 01:30 pm UTC (link)
yes, that's pretty much what Steve Tilley wrote...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Well... - [info]koraxdsparil, 2006-09-18 02:33 pm UTC

[info]jargon_john
2006-09-17 01:48 pm UTC (link)
Great, this idiot has my mom all worried about me now. She's worried about the hard rock, heavy metal music I listen to (she must have overlooked my Kelly Clarkson and Avril Lavigne CDs...), me being a fan of Tim Burton (yeah, such violent movies right there...sans Sleepy Hollow), wear black clothes (...), and hate sunlight (It hurts my eyes, ok!?).

On a final note, I heart Steve Tilley and Michael Redfearn. I disheart Licia Corbella and Mike Strobel.

(Reply to this)


[info]terminator44
2006-09-17 01:52 pm UTC (link)
"...As a newspaper man, I cringe at talk of censorship. But free speech has limits. Otherwise, Nazis will florish anew. Racists. Snuff films. When New Zeland and Australia banned Manhunt, those nations did not fall into the sea..."

Ummm, Neo-Nazis and racists ARE protected under the 1st Amendment, as was established in the Supreme Court ruling in Stokie. Those groups actually DO practice violence against minorities on a regular basis. If their views are protected speech, why aren't videogames? When will these people learn that everytime we deny free speech to somebody, we become one step closer to having it deined to EVERYBODY?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

neo-nazis aren't protected up here
[info]jabrwock
2006-09-17 05:07 pm UTC (link)
Ummm, Neo-Nazis and racists ARE protected under the 1st Amendment

He's talking about in Canada, where they're not. Our "Charter of Rights and Freedoms" has a much looser definition, and hate speech falls outside the realm of "protected speech".

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: neo-nazis aren't protected up here - [info]blitzfitness, 2006-09-17 05:32 pm UTC
Re: neo-nazis aren't protected up here - [info]terminator44, 2006-09-17 06:55 pm UTC
From an Alternate Reality...
[info]cecil475
2006-09-17 02:36 pm UTC (link)
We have banned violent videogames. Nothing changed. There were still school shootings. Even after we banned all videogames all together.
So we started to ban programs from telivision. Banned all violent movies. Started going through the music and books people listen/read. And started to ban offensive material.

It's been only five years. Videogames no longer exist. Only children-safe family friendly programs are allowed on television and the the same thing applies to the movies.

After five years violence of any type has been purged out of the media and all types of sub-cultures that don't meet our child-safe and family-friendly enviroment are deported out of our 'moral America'. Or they are eradicated.

Thing is people hav started to leave the country to have their 'freedom of choice.' And there are STILL school shootings. In fact there were two last week. We don't know why. Some say It's becuase we have taken utter control away from everyone's lives. Complete rubbish, in my opinion. There is not much else to ban other than what we have left, which is not much. After banning all that, and children are still killing each other, we may have no choice but to find out what the REAL problems are.

*END OF TRANSMISSION*

I'm glad we live in a place where the First Amendment keeps that stuff from happening.

- Warren Lewis

(Reply to this)


[info]eternallegenduk
2006-09-17 02:40 pm UTC (link)
"When New Zealand and Australia banned Manhunt, those nations did not fall into the sea..."

What's the name for that logical fallacy? "We should do X because X isn't bad" is not the same as "we should do X because X is good."

"They played Doom, Redneck Rampage and Duke Nukem. Hmm, do you think video games had anything to do with that slaughter? Or the new one in Montreal?"

This is something that we see pretty much every time from the anti-gaming side of the fence. Their argument boils down to saying that these people played games, and these people committed crimes, and (wink wink) can you see the connection there?

"Cops found the video game Need For Speed in the wreckage." Was the driver playing it at the time? If not, then having it in the wreckage is no different to having it in the cupboard at home. The NFS series has sold millions of copies and has been found in one car crash.

"Kimveer Gill was the exception. Harris and Klebold were the exceptions."

SPOT ON. Please, anti-gaming people, get this through your heads. The defining factor in these crimes is the CRIMINAL and not the GAMES THEY PLAYED. If playing some games resulted in crime in an actual causal way, then we would be seeing a hell of a lot more incidents.

"Some gamers are killers" and "some killers are gamers." Two statements, one meaning, two very different implications.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]xwaix
2006-09-17 03:20 pm UTC (link)
It's like John Pugente said.

Pungente, whose organization seeks to have media literacy programs included in Canadian school curriculums, added that those who would blame the Dawson rampage and other events on video games would have difficulty explaining why only a tiny fraction of gamers become violent.-GP (http://gamepolitics.livejournal.com/363238.html)

That's what I've always wondered. If Grand Theft Auto and Doom and similar games can all cause people to become killers, why have only a few out of the millions of people that have played these games actually done so?

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]urbaer.myopenid.com, 2006-09-23 04:30 am UTC

[info]ss_ebonclaw
2006-09-17 02:41 pm UTC (link)
I'm ashamed to say, I live in Calgary, where 2 of those columns came from. And I think their game guy has it right. This city is so full of older, "conservative" citizens that anything that even begins to threaten how they used to view the world, is a horror. The same people who grew up with comics, rock and roll, and all that other junk, which were all claimed at the time as being evil and anti-social.

The idiots who try to blame video games on violence, and who blame their violent acts on video games, both have to go see some shrinks. There's far deeper issues involved here. As well as FAR simpler ones. Violent people are drawn to violent things. Violent music, movies, games, art, literature, websites, communities, events, etc..

One simple fact remains, that stable people aren't knocked out of whack, by exposure to a few elements of secluded and encased fiction. If they were, don't you think there'd be a lot more people who try to pick up a sword and go cut people up, after seeing Star Wars? Lots of guns and swords in there.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]kharne83
2006-09-17 03:39 pm UTC (link)
You are what you eat.

Oh irony, that this may be spoken in ignorence!

I have to agree with you. Games might be violent, music might be hateful, but it's not like someone is a nice, normal person untill master chief tells them otherwise. If someone did something violent, then of cource they play violent games. Like you said violent people like violent things, so why wouldn't they play violent games or listen to violent music? When you get down to it, media is a cannibal: you eat what you are.

I don't deny that violent media may inspire these acts, but weren't these people already looking for insperation to begin with? There's a link between the two, but I think people have it backwards: Playing games won't make you violent but being violent might make you play games.

Unfortunatly if people actually listened to that statement their reaction would porobably be to still assume all gamers are violent, only now for different reasons.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]rowan_greyson, 2006-09-17 08:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kharne83, 2006-09-17 10:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rowan_greyson, 2006-09-18 12:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]zippydsmlee, 2006-09-17 11:53 pm UTC
Calgary Sun
[info]unkn0wn_kadath
2006-09-17 03:04 pm UTC (link)
The Calgary Sun is a tabloid not known for the subtlety of it's analysis. I do not think that an entry entitled "Canadian Papers Weigh in on Montreal Rampage" should be based mostly on one newspaper published hundreds of kilometers away from the actual events.

The views expressed in the Calgary Sun seems to be much more extreme than what I read in the newspapers here in Montreal and what I saw on TV (with minor exceptions). The shooting is about the only subject in the media since it happened.

The medias in general seems to focus more on the isolation of the guy and on goth culture. Event then, most commentators don't see it as a cause for the events.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Calgary Sun
[info]gamepolitics
2006-09-17 03:53 pm UTC (link)
we do an "editorial roundup" feature almost every Sunday.

This Sunday all of the game-related opinion pieces I found were on the Dawson shooting. There were four, and you're looking at them in this article.

They're all - as headlined - Canadian media. I'm not sure of the corporate relationships up there, but the Sun seems to cross-publish in several markets.

I'm not sure what your gripe is, but as the old saying goes, don't shoot the messenger. get me some opinion pieces from other Canadian outlets and I'll cover them.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Calgary Sun - [info]jabrwock, 2006-09-17 05:13 pm UTC
Re: Calgary Sun - [info]gamepolitics, 2006-09-17 05:20 pm UTC
Re: Calgary Sun - [info]unkn0wn_kadath, 2006-09-17 08:44 pm UTC
Re: Calgary Sun - [info]gamepolitics, 2006-09-17 08:48 pm UTC
Re: Calgary Sun - [info]ss_ebonclaw, 2006-09-17 04:08 pm UTC
Re: Calgary Sun - [info]unkn0wn_kadath, 2006-09-17 08:55 pm UTC
Re: Calgary Sun - [info]jabrwock, 2006-09-18 03:22 pm UTC
Jeez........
[info]ianc14
2006-09-17 03:04 pm UTC (link)
if you consume violence, you will be violent

And if you consume carrots, you turn into a carrot!!! /taking to extreme

...How many times must a video game turn up as evidence at a crime scene before we wake up?
The game was at the crime scene, eh?

What does Tahir Khan have in common with Dawson College, you ask? ...(in 2005) he was dead, his taxi crushed by a Mercedes allegedly engaged in a street race. Cops found the video game Need For Speed in the wreckage.
If every copy of Need for Speed sold caused street races, how come there isnt more of them? How come i havent driving my dads car at a 100s of miles per hour down the road?

Remember Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold? ...They played Doom, Redneck Rampage and Duke Nukem. Hmm, do you think video games had anything to do with that slaughter? Or the new one in Montreal?
They also went bowling, think that had anything to do with it?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Jeez........
[info]ss_ebonclaw
2006-09-17 05:11 pm UTC (link)
No, if you eat a lot of carrots, you'll become Carrot Top. There's a huge and terrible difference. What goes in is concentrated, butchered and has all the goodness and wholesomeness ripped from it, leaving only a twisted, loud, annoying shell of a comedian.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Jeez........ - [info]jaketheelf, 2006-09-18 12:28 am UTC
I have to wonder...
[info]lordlundar
2006-09-17 03:08 pm UTC (link)
I have to ask why reporters and columnists are allowed to write about things they have no clue about? Licia Corbella has never even touched the game she blasts, and Mike Strobel's piece there sounds like something from a conspiracy nut. I even doubt these two have ever played a game outside of Pong.

"...As a newspaper man, I cringe at talk of censorship. But free speech has limits. Otherwise, Nazis would flourish anew. Racists. Snuff films. When New Zealand and Australia banned Manhunt, those nations did not fall into the sea..."

Hmm, let's see, racism and snuff films have been directly linked to certain murders. This is why there are laws regarding hate crimes and saftey regulations for movies. Show me one incident where games were the sole cause of a person's death, where mental state is not a factor. Can't find one? Didn't think so.

These two should really listen to Stephen Harper (our current PM for those of you unsure.) He basically said that media should stop trying to find a scapegoat to demonize and let the police and courts find out the truth first.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: I have to wonder...
[info]pope_guilty
2006-09-17 06:37 pm UTC (link)
I'd like to take this moment to remind everyone that there is no such thing as a snuff film- the FBI has looked for years and never found one.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

"But free speech has limits"
[info]sir_bissel
2006-09-17 03:40 pm UTC (link)
if you're a facist.


The one person who said that video games don't cause school shootings was a nice break from te others, though. I'm also entertained that Mike Strobel compares us to New Zealand and Australia... but misses, say... Japan? But I guess it's always easy to leave stuff out when it doesn't help your point.

Still want to know how Doom, Redneck Rampage and Duke Nukem help make people want to kill things. I mean, why not, the next time someone shoots a school, let's blame it on Lego Star Wars 2. "But I thought they'd break into a bunch of pieces and regenerate!" It's as likely as Duke Nukem, Doom, etc.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: "But free speech has limits"
[info]kincyr
2006-09-17 10:26 pm UTC (link)
LOL at the Lego Star Wars 2 comment. That might actually happen though, seeing as Chewbacca can rip the arms right off his enemies.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

e-mail?
[info]gamereviewgod
2006-09-17 03:45 pm UTC (link)
Anyone have the e-mail address for Licia Corbella? I found Strobel's which wasn't exactly difficult, but hers doesn't seem to be anywhere on the site.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: e-mail?
[info]yukimurasanada
2006-09-17 04:09 pm UTC (link)
licia.corbella@calgarysun.com

There you go buddy

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: e-mail? - [info]father_time89, 2006-09-19 12:19 am UTC
Re: e-mail? - [info]father_time89, 2006-09-19 01:44 am UTC
Re: e-mail? - [info]trencher, 2006-09-17 07:07 pm UTC
My take on these editorials (Part 1)
[info]nightwng2000
2006-09-17 03:53 pm UTC (link)
"You are what you eat. Garbage in, garbage out... if you consume violence, you will be violent... "

No, a variety of types of individuals have their likes and dislikes which can vary to a great degree. Violent individuals will seek out BOTH fictional and non-ficitional violent stimuli. Non-violent individuals may vary well see out ficitional violent stimuli (books, movies, TV, video games) but they will shun non-fictional violence (fighting, violent sports, etc). Assuming that everyone whose interests include fictional violence means that they are violent in non-fictional settings shows lack of intellect on the part of the one making the assumption.

"Is Ledonne partly responsible for Wednesday's mayhem? Legally, no. But what about morally?"

Is everyone who is Christian responsible, even in part, for Eric Rudolph, Fred Phelps, the Eagles Forum, or the KKK? Is everyone who is Muslim (or whatever the religion) responsible, even in part, for Osama Bin Laudin and the terrorists of 9/11? Are all European-Americans responsible for slavery of the past or the massacre of Native-Americans of the past? Are all African-Americans responsible for the Black Panthers, or the atrocities being commited in Africa (such as the events of Dafur)? It's very easy to point fingers, isn't it?

"I'm the rule, not the exception."
Stereotypes try to make us the rule. The Truth, however, is what makes us the exception.

The Trust is also that once all the TV shows, movies, video games, books, there won't be anything left. Not even religion. Not even political debate. While there are plenty of outspoken folks who hate this or that. Once all they hate is gone, then they will go silent. And what other people hate will find its loud voice. And the first group may find that what the second group hates is what the first group found acceptable. Humans love to hate. Unified Diversity is completely impossible for Humans because they love to hate.

"...evidence at a crime scene..."
They don't. At all. Mainstream media points out their existance. Agenda seekers try to influence proper investigation by authorities by interfering in the cases by pointing fingers at video games, books, movies, music, etc. But as True evidence? Not at all. Devon Moore wanted a defense to justify his acts. But he's the one who made a choice, based on whatever events occured throughout his life. Not because of one single stimuli. The journals of Eric and Dylan show that video games played almost no role when it came to their attack. What did someone say? 2 or 3 pages out of over 200 pages of the journals? The journals pointed out far greater Truths about what led them to their ill-fated decision. Of course, as with many school shootings, there appears to be no investigation into the abuse that they suffered and the authority figures who ignored it. Of course, that too, was only a small part. But Strobel seems to think that video game reference makes "evidence". Why not abuse? Or reported mental problems such as depression?

(Continued)

(Reply to this)

My take on these editorials (Part 2)
[info]nightwng2000
2006-09-17 03:54 pm UTC (link)
(concluded)

As to Free speech. Actually, there should be no limits. That probably does sound dangerous to some. But bigotry and hate spoken in the open means that it can be challenged in the open. Screaming "Fire!" in a crowded room shouldn't be illegal. But encouraging people to flee, through action, in an unsafe manner would easily fall under some form of "endangerment". And while child porn involving real models would clearly violate the rights of the child in multiple ways, child porn based entirely in a ficticious realm where no access to real children was made certainly makes for an interesting debate (as has been done). After all, one individual's rights should end where another individual's rights begin. Anything else could be described as a dictatorship. I suspect someone will find a flaw in that argument. I actually invite intelligent debate on that point.
But, back to the point, the limits imposed on Free Speech are actually personal/religious/political restrictions used to attempt to circumvent the First Amendment and violate other individual's rights. As many have pointed out in the past, the First Amendment is designed more to protect UNpopular speech, rather than the popular, accepted speech. Some say the Founding Fathers didn't anticipate what was to come in the future. I said they did. I say they designed the basic rights of individuals to protect the individual. That they designed it so that, as I said, one individual's rights came to a halt where another individual's rights begin.

".... it's easier to point accusing fingers at familiar targets..."

I mentioned that in a previous article. Mainstream media, politicians, and agenda seekers are rather keen on doing that very thing.

nightwng2000
NW2K Software

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: My take on these editorials (Part 2)
[info]dudelovenext
2006-09-17 06:08 pm UTC (link)
Very well written!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]n0m4n
2006-09-17 03:59 pm UTC (link)
Is Ledonne partly responsible for Wednesday's mayhem? Legally, no. But what about morally?" No not really.

"Dawson College is the latest. Killer Kimveer Gill was a fan of Super Columbine Massacre, a lovely bit of Internet fun... What does Tahir Khan have in common with Dawson College, you ask? ...(in 2005) he was dead, his taxi crushed by a Mercedes allegedly engaged in a street race. Cops found the video game Need For Speed in the wreckage. A court will decide if it played a role." Damn that is a seemless transition. It is right up there with "I like that hat, my dog is big, you are an idiot."

"...Alabama, where Devin Moore, 18, slew three troopers after being pulled over in a stolen car. "Life is like a video game," he said later. "You've got to die sometime." Huh? Wait a minute! That's what Kimveer Gill used to say. Only, young Devin's game of choice was Grand Theft Auto." It was, really? He played one of the most popular games of this generation? God damn, what are the chances?

"Remember Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold? ...They played Doom, Redneck Rampage and Duke Nukem. Hmm, do you think video games had anything to do with that slaughter? Or the new one in Montreal?" Not really. Do you think a dog instructed Sam. Should we ban dogs?

"But free speech has limits. Otherwise, Nazis would flourish anew. Racists. Snuff films." Because films about killing someone is definatly covored under the first ammendment. Seriously though, were you hired as a tax right off?

"When New Zealand and Australia banned Manhunt, those nations did not fall into the sea..."</blockquote> Yet..

In summary: http://youtube.com/watch?v=0h0z6vkcY10

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]koraxdsparil
2006-09-18 03:22 pm UTC (link)
"Is Ledonne partly responsible for Wednesday's mayhem? Legally, no. But what about morally?"

Im sure as hell he's not responsible morally for what happened, because there was no way to predict what would happen. It's like saying "let's stop breathing because it'll contribute to global heating". And I'm also sure that, despite he's not responsible at all, he feels bad for what happens no matter what.

And, by the way, who declared Corbella a "moral compass"? Herself? The pope? Christians... give me a break.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]hayabusa75, 2006-09-18 05:34 pm UTC

[info]vansau
2006-09-17 04:49 pm UTC (link)
How much do you want to bet that the people who wrote these articles are all over 40 and have never played a video game?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]gamepolitics
2006-09-17 04:55 pm UTC (link)
the key point being the "and never played a video game" part...

;-)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Mike Strobel the technophobe - [info]jabrwock, 2006-09-17 05:16 pm UTC
Re: Mike Strobel the technophobe - [info]kyouryuu, 2006-09-17 05:26 pm UTC
Morally?
[info]bustermanzero
2006-09-17 05:23 pm UTC (link)
"Is Ledonne partly responsible for Wednesday's mayhem? Legally, no. But what about morally?"

No, he isn't. With something as broad as video games, you can't choose your customers. Unlike illegal drugs, child porn, and the like, which tailor only to people who are considered by society to have some kind of mental disease or addiction, control over who gets a game is very limited. Public games have the ESRB. Flash games and free online games do not. Just because a lunatic played his game does not mean he trained the son-of-a female dog to go out and kill people.

Some stores sell knives. People get stabbed by knives. And not just hunting knives or pocket ones, but even kitchen ones. Forks. Corkscrews. Do the people who sell these things have a moral responsibility if one of their products is used as a weapon? Nope.

Oh, and on the subject of Mike Strobel. You want to ban something that supposedly kills less people than rabbies? And you compare incidents that have a link about as weak as tissue paper? Genius. Next lets ban water because it kills hundreds of people a year.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Morally?
[info]blitzfitness
2006-09-17 05:37 pm UTC (link)
Yea, that was a sorry excuse of an example. It's like people believe that a shoe salesman should be arrested for every attack in prison involving shoe laces.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]kyouryuu
2006-09-17 05:44 pm UTC (link)
"You are what you eat. Garbage in, garbage out... if you consume violence, you will be violent..."

And that's why we have 20 million murderers and car thieves walking the streets, right? Cause every one of them played Game Theft Auto?

"In a fascinating, if not utterly maddening interview... (Super Columbine designer Danny) Ledonne calls his disgraceful, exploitative game 'art' and 'social commentary'"

I may be against the norm here, and even be a little hypocritical, but I believe Ledonne should feel some remorse. There are more graceful ways to arrive at the same political message that don't exploit a real-world event. Why base it on Columbine? The shock value? The attention? After all, so much of science fiction is built on metaphors for current times. The Twilight Zone was a sly commentary.

To steal something from Jurassic Park, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Sure, no one is stopping anyone from making a game about Columbine, or creating a flight simulator that lets you crash planes into buildings. But that doesn't mean you should, either. Have some moral responsibility and common sense. What good can honestly come of designing such a game? We're talking about the actions of two depraved individuals. Yes, bullying is a problem, but we're becoming increasingly aware of that. There isn't a need to indict the "whole system," as it were, because of the actions of a few. Is that not the same argument as the Luddites who argue that video games are at the fault of everything?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]sir_bissel
2006-09-17 07:21 pm UTC (link)
Every single one played Grand Theft Auto. Apparently fewer now than in the 1980s and 70s and whatnot, but you know, it was more popular back then than it is now.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kyouryuu, 2006-09-18 06:10 am UTC
Nice timing - [info]seph2710, 2006-09-17 07:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eternallegenduk, 2006-09-18 06:27 am UTC

[info]thefremen
2006-09-17 05:53 pm UTC (link)
I had no idea so many Canadiens got all hot and bothered by reading 1984.

(Reply to this)


[info]durlock
2006-09-17 05:56 pm UTC (link)
As someone that lives in Alberta...I saw the Edmonton Sun reporting on it, the thing got front page news of course, but I don't even think they mentioned games in their article at all.

There are, obvious differences between the Edmonton Sun, the Calgary Sun and the Toronto Sun. I've read them all, and generally speaking, Edmonton's is the only real newspaper in the bunch. Though I didn't know that Tilley wrote for the Calgary one, his article is probably also in the Edmonton one too.

And finally, my statement for the day, even though I haven't made one recently.

If you bvuy a videogame, regardless of the rating, be it between E to AO, the legal responcibility of your actions if you say 'Videogames made me do it' shouldn't be the companies fault. Once you made the decision to buy the game all that ends up is your doing. You did not have to buy the game, you did not have to commit whatever acts you did.

That should be an added disclaimer to viedogames now. "If you buy and play this game and do something stupid and then blame us, we'll sue you."

That's what journalists, for the half to most part are doing, slandering videogames on various fronts. Once some top-exec starts to realize that they don't need to take that kind of shit from people it'll be time for the counter-suing to begin and certain people will hopefully either be shut up or out of a job.

I'm sorry, it's just...stupid.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]lordlundar
2006-09-18 04:38 am UTC (link)
The Edmonton Sun didn't mention the game angle at all.

It's take is different because it's only distributed through Sun Media Corp. The content and compilation are done entirely in house.

Tilley Used to write from Edmonton, but moved to Calgary a few months ago.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]kurisu7885
2006-09-17 06:31 pm UTC (link)
"...As a newspaper man, I cringe at talk of censorship. But free speech has limits. Otherwise, Nazis would flourish anew. Racists. Snuff films. When New Zealand and Australia banned Manhunt, those nations did not fall into the sea..."

Yes you conveniantly fail to mention that Japan basically made the video game consoel a household appliance and yet it hasn't fallen int othe sea yet either. Then again, these are problably soem fo the peope lwho think back in World Ward 2 we should have just reduced Japan to radioactive vapor

(Reply to this)

Telltale signs of BS
[info]woundwalker
2006-09-17 06:46 pm UTC (link)
In every one of the anti-game editorials, there is at least one thing that proves they have no idea.
In Strobel's
I wonder how many of us really know what is being played on that basement TV. It is different than scary movies, or playing "cops and robbers" or watching the nightly news.
'Us'. The moral majority? and that implies there is a 'them', the patsy, fat video game sickos on the 'basement TV'. Well naturally, noone with the money for their own TV would be braindead enough to play games would they? So there is the stereotype that 'normal adults' dont play games. Next!
From the other:
My sons voluntarily avoid on-line games that are violent, not just because to do so would lose them their privileges, but because, as one said, he doesn't "want to pollute my mind."
Anybody who can make a nine-year old say that is blowing the problem out of all proportion. Boys are supposed to like fast cars and blowing things up, not be concerned with keeping their minds 'pure'.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Telltale signs of BS
[info]hayabusa75
2006-09-18 05:23 pm UTC (link)
Who wants to bet her kids are going to grow up to be the biggest and most bullied pussies in their high school?

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Telltale signs of BS - [info]koraxdsparil, 2006-09-18 05:34 pm UTC
Re: Telltale signs of BS - [info]selphiroth, 2006-09-19 10:48 am UTC

[info]kbkarma
2006-09-17 07:13 pm UTC (link)
Yay Tilley and Redfearn!

Boo Corbella and Stroebel!

"Then we can move on to violent movies (so long, Goodfellas), television (seeya, 24) and even books. What a safe, wonderful and tragedy-free world it will be then..."

I've often thought this. If they start doing that to games, then what about violent movies? Goth music, out the window. Emo music... well, that's not so bad.

But, what about the news? I mean, games are fiction, for the most part (unless WW2 actually didn't happen), but the news is what's really happening. The news show us people dieing around the world.

And not that dumb CT camping the bombsite. Real people, who had lives and futures, both of which were so brutally taken away.

Why don't people work on anger management classes or psych test for these schools? Maybe that way they can find the ones who might relive games.

(Reply to this)


[info]nightwng2000
2006-09-17 07:24 pm UTC (link)
I wonder what video games, and other media, the mainstream media would blame for how the Addams Family turned out if they were real. Hmmm....

nightwng2000
NW2K Software

(Reply to this)


[info]finaleve
2006-09-17 07:25 pm UTC (link)
I like these editorials better, whereas you see people for and against, and can see the line drawn between right and completely insane.

S'ok, video games had a hand in these [Mike Strobel's article reference] cases, okay. Hm...so let's say it's the early 70's, whereas boy scouts was around most noticibly. Now...a boy named A was being made fun of by B and C. B and C were pushing the boundaries each encounter, where it turned to abusing A and torturing him (making a point here). Now A likes archery. It's his favorite thing to do. He practices every day because that's what he loves to do. One day, A became so furious with B and C that he went to the archery range, took a bow and some arrows and killed B and C.

The point? Violence can spring up anywhere, not just video games, but because there are mere references to each of these cases, there is always a finger at the industry. Hm...sounds like something we've learned in history class.

McCarthyism ring a bell?

Oh, but we were taught history lessons that were roughly the same thing so that we won't make the same mistakes again.
...yay for politicians and the media for sticking their foot up that.

(Reply to this)

Morally depraved...
[info]amazingspamboy
2006-09-17 08:10 pm UTC (link)
About the last editorial...on one hand, I'm glad he sees past the "consume violent entertainment, become violent" nonsense that some people so enjoy spouting, but on the other, I can't help but shake the feeling that he still has no idea about the entertainment blamed for the attacks, and that's a big reason why people blame these things. They don't know what they're about, and thus can call them morally depraved without having any real experience of them.

I might be in the minority here, but I thought the Super Columbine Massacre RPG was a great piece of art. Instead of glorifying the attacks, I think it showed us the horror from a more personal, internal level. I was disturbed while playing it, not at the game itself, but at how I played the game, and I think that was what the creator was trying to do.

And is heavy metal music morally depraved? Especially bands like Iron Maiden, who Kimveer was a fan of, a band that writes songs based on Romanticist poems, the nature of life and death, and the injustice of war? As a fan of metal, I am continually amazed that, after 30 years, people still hold the same misconceptions about the genre.

And there is nothing depraved about goth culture, either. I think most people think being goth means wearing black and hating the world, which is utter nonsense, but those are the misconceptions out there.

The thing is, even if you don't support regulation, propagating such myths will only foster more close-minded fools who want to ban and demonize things they don't understand.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Morally depraved...
[info]selphiroth
2006-09-19 10:49 am UTC (link)
I loved SCM for the very reason you stated. It was thoughtfully done and it raised the issues and controversies that it was planned to raise.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


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