gamepolitics: Columbine Game Designer Speaks About Montreal Rampage

Game Politics (

gamepolitics) wrote,
@ 2006-09-15 07:12:00

Entry tags:

danny ledonne, dawson college, kimveer gill, montreal, school shootings, super columbine

Columbine Game Designer Speaks About Montreal Rampage

Did an amateur video game project push a 25-year-old man over the edge, leading to Wednesday's shooting rampage in Montreal?

Danny LeDonne, creator of Super Columbine Massacre RPG, was interviewed by Canoe Live about Wednesday's tragic events at Dawson College. Toronto Sun reporter Mike Strobel provided counterpoint.

LeDonne said that he felt no guilt over the incident.

"What I felt most," he said, "was regret for a young man that had lost touch with reality and just seemed to really have no grasp on any kind of moral compass... Frankly I made my video game because video games have become one of (society's) scapegoats... I was a student in a Colorado high school at the time of (Columbine)... video games were being blamed for the shooting when investigators said there were so many warning signs that needed to be addressed..."

Strobel was critical of LeDonne's project as well as video game violence in general. Speaking of the Devin Moore case in which the 18-year-old killed two police officers and a dispatcher, Strobel said, "There's not a whole lot of thinking to be done about that it seems to me, or analysis. Grand Theft Auto led to those killings, bottom line."

Seeking to put the role of video games in context, LeDonne added, "I can't stress enough the involvement of parents in the lives of young people. Find out what your kids are playing. Talk to them. Get in touch with them. Most of these cases have kids who have fallen through the cracks. They hate life, they say it. And these I feel are the root causes, not whetever video game or book or movie they happened to pick up that week..."

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I'm losing hope for the human race again.

enmitywithin
2006-09-15 11:43 am UTC (link)

it's a great thing that LeDonne feels no guilt, I mean why should he?

but what's this idiot saying "grand theft auto led to those killings, bottom line" for? NOT bottom line, in fact the line is so much lower you can't even see it from here. taking a few odd quotes out of context usually makes you look stupid.

I want to hear what these losers say, unfortunately I can't do that until i get home, so if you can get a transcript Dennis, that would be great.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: I'm losing hope for the human race again.

gamepolitics
2006-09-15 12:29 pm UTC (link)

I was surprised that Mike Strobel expressed that degree of certainty on the role of GTA. That suit hasn't gone to trial yet, so the evidence has yet to be fully heard.

What's more, the killer, Devin Moore, had a very troubled life, like so many others who turn to crime and violence. To make a cut-and-dried pronouncement from a distance that a video game caused the killings just seems dumb.

Remember that the trial judge refused to even hear anything about video games during the criminal case.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: I'm losing hope for the human race again. -

nightwng2000, 2006-09-15 01:54 pm UTC

Re: I'm losing hope for the human race again. -

gamepolitics, 2006-09-15 02:40 pm UTC

Mike Strobel -

jabrwock, 2006-09-15 04:20 pm UTC

Re: Mike Strobel -

n0m4n, 2006-09-16 01:18 pm UTC

It's the Toronto Sun... -

jabrwock, 2006-09-15 02:43 pm UTC

Re: I'm losing hope for the human race again. -

turbinerocks, 2006-09-15 07:26 pm UTC

Re: I'm losing hope for the human race again. -

terminator44, 2006-09-15 07:57 pm UTC

Re: I'm losing hope for the human race again. -

turbinerocks, 2006-09-15 09:09 pm UTC

Re: It's the Toronto Sun... -

scazza, 2006-09-16 12:41 am UTC

Who's really to blame?

nightwng2000
2006-09-15 12:13 pm UTC (link)

Like all out bad press on a badly made game, it's the sensationalist news media and agenda seekers who are actually to blame for the school shootings.

In some cases, it is pointed out that these events actually begin with bullying by other students and unjust treatment by authority figures. "If you don't conform, we don't care" is the sentiment spread by authority figures who knowingly and intentionally ignore the mental, physical, verbal, and even sexual abuse by some students against those who are "different".

So what did some students do so long ago? Took a gun or a knife to school. They were "different" so the authority figures didn't care that they were being abused. So they sought their own justice. Doesn't mean it's right. It means that's what they are left with. And all those claiming to be morally superior and bully experts didn't seem to care either about the abuse the student(s) were going through. Only until those student(s) who were the victims of the abuse stood up and tried to obtain what they felt was justice did those so-called experts and morally superior folks step in. And who did they condemn? Not the authority figures who allowed the abuse to occur. Not the abusers. But the victims. "Don't stand up to the abuser." "Don't fight back." "Ignore your abuser." "Conform and they'll stop." On and on. No condemnations for the abuser and supporters of the abusers.

And what happens? Other victims see the news "Oh look, another school shooting. They were being abused like me. And oh, look, the experts say it's the victim's fault that they were abused. But, hey, the shooter got their justice. No one's condeming the abusers or the supporters of the abusers. But the victims got their justice the only way they knew how."
Sure, some kids become depressed and commit suicide. But, hey, they didn't conform to their abuser's whims, so it's their fault. If they hadn't listened to that music, or played that game, things would have been fine.
Some kids stay victims throughout their lives. But, hey, they didn't strike out. And so what if they don't trust any other authority figures? We can use them in future agendas and jack up the statistics there too.
And some kids stand up to their abusers, non-violently. Sometimes, that gets them killed. But, hey, that's one less "different" person in the world. And we ignored... er... didn't see the signs. So it isn't our fault.
And then, there are the ones who become abusers themselves. But, hey, they're "different", so it's expected of people like that to act like that. Let's have a press release and blame pop culture instead of those who abused them and instead of the authority figures who allowed the "different" kids to be abused.

So more and more of these cases happen because, as shown in the reports, the only way someone is going to find justice is if they take it. After all, as mentioned above, it's their fault they were abused to begin with. The abusers weren't held accountable. The authority figures weren't held accountable. And those reporting the cases time after time just blame the victims. Even the so-called experts and morally superior blame the victims because they are "different". So what other option is left? Look at the news to find out the answer.

So who is REALLY to blame for all the "copycat" events over the last few years? Hmmm....

nightwng2000
NW2K Software

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Who's really to blame?

jahbulon
2006-09-15 12:58 pm UTC (link)

If the victim picks up a gun and starts shooting people, I will blame them too. I was bullied, I had no friends during my formative years, I was beaten and harangued. I haven't killed anyone yet.

By the way, you don't need to sign your posts on livejournal because every time you comment or post something it displays your name right there. Amazing technology, I know.

BOB DOLE
BOB DOLE
BOB DOOOOOOOOLE

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Who's really to blame? -

nightwng2000, 2006-09-15 03:01 pm UTC

Re: Who's really to blame? -

cdarklock, 2006-09-15 01:04 pm UTC

Re: Who's really to blame? -

nightwng2000, 2006-09-15 03:05 pm UTC

Re: Who's really to blame? -

nightwng2000, 2006-09-15 02:28 pm UTC

Re: Who's really to blame? -

elixer44, 2006-09-15 10:17 pm UTC

Re: Who's really to blame? -

nightwng2000, 2006-09-16 12:10 am UTC

Re: Who's really to blame? -

selphiroth, 2006-09-17 12:45 pm UTC

	terminator44 2006-09-15 12:47 pm UTC (link)
	"There's not a whole lot of thinking to be done about that it seems to me, or analysis. Grand Theft Auto led to those killings, bottom line." Yeah, because nobody every harmed a police officer before GTA. At first I thought the Toronto Sun was just being sensationalist. It's clear now that they vehemently despise video games. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	liradralyn 2006-09-15 12:57 pm UTC (link)
	The Sun's little more than a tabloid rag anyway... (Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) -

kiki_maru, 2006-09-15 01:28 pm UTC

(no subject) -

cecil475, 2006-09-15 02:49 pm UTC

(no subject) -

landale, 2006-09-15 05:56 pm UTC

(no subject) -

terminator44, 2006-09-15 08:01 pm UTC

xwaix
2006-09-15 12:57 pm UTC (link)

Strobel was critical of LeDonne's project as well as video game violence in general. Speaking of the Devin Moore case in which the 18-year-old killed two police officers and a dispatcher, Strobel said, "There's not a whole lot of thinking to be done about that it seems to me, or analysis. Grand Theft Auto led to those killings, bottom line."

This man's uncanny logic and persuasive arguments have led me to believe that he is right!

[/sarcasm]

God, I feel dirty now... (>_>)

(Reply to this)

	deviancy 2006-09-15 12:58 pm UTC (link)
	I am of the mind that news media outlets and their sensationalist ilk have lost the better grip on reality that I once hoped they had. -e- (Reply to this)

	Enlightened Opinion beardedferret 2006-09-15 01:28 pm UTC (link)
	I'm suitably impressed with LeDonne's attitude. He's actually produced one of the most mature quotes I've seen in this debate. Coming from someone with his background, it's even more impressive. The mainstream press need to be airing more from him - he's got some good things to say. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: Enlightened Opinion angry_man 2006-09-15 07:39 pm UTC (link)
	Which is exactly why they won't. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Enlightened Opinion -

kajex, 2006-09-16 06:34 am UTC

	lordtwinkie 2006-09-15 02:29 pm UTC (link)
	"There's not a whole lot of thinking to be done" too true Strobel, I'm going to guess you use that mantra alot in life. (Reply to this)

	bm03 2006-09-15 02:32 pm UTC (link)
	>There's not a whole lot of thinking to be done about that it seems to me ...which is good, as it seems very little actually gets done. /b (Reply to this)

	When will people learn? philoetus 2006-09-15 02:36 pm UTC (link)
	Violence is a cyclical process I hurt you => you hurt me back, if you can't do that you hurt someone else => rinse, repeat. What "Bullying" experts don't seem to understand is that they are advocating the cult of victimhood, which, there is clear evidence has a negative impact on society. Learn to stand up to your enemies and leave it at that. (Reply to this)

chuma
2006-09-15 02:37 pm UTC (link)

I could think of a well worded and justified response to this ongoing rubbish about gaming and its involvement in crime, but frankly those that are spouting it aren't listening anyhow.

Lets look away from the fact the asshole went into a college and look at the person himself who is being analysed a moment.

This guy was a goth and a gamer who loves metal. He was a also a psychopath with a gun fetish. I am also a goth and a gamer who loves metal (amongst other music). However I have held down a job as a programmer for years, never even had so much as a speeding ticket and no intention of going on a killing spree. The media will make no such distinction between us when trying to portray his lifestyle as being the reason for his actions.

I am willing to bet that however tragic, there has been multiple homocides, stabbings, brutal assaults and rapes committed by neds and chavs all in their similar garb of baseball caps, trainers, bur-berry and dance music in the UK alone. However I dare say none of these will be mentioned in the media as those who wear black or play games are much easier to stereotype to an ignorant populous.

I know it sounds crass or callous, but why can't these people just find a secluded place to kill themselves instead...

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Agreed!

selphiroth
2006-09-17 12:49 pm UTC (link)

I wonder how much longer games will be blamed though. I had a conversation about this with a friend just another day. Given the size of our world, it's pretty hard to be a complete failure; yet Jack Thompson is pretty much considered a joke everywhere beside in New Zealand Women's Weekly. I wondered that, if this happened twenty years ago, wouldn't the majority of the world side with Jack?

Wait... Didn't Jack told people to make a Colombine game to start with? Can we blame this specific shooting on him then? =)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Agreed! -

selphiroth, 2006-09-17 12:52 pm UTC

...

the_new_l
2006-09-15 02:45 pm UTC (link)

Hooray for sensationalism...or not. This is past ridiculous by this point. I bet Strobel plays videogames on occasion himself, judging by the fact that he's alive and this is 2006 and all.

On a side note, I'm totally going to make Super Murder Simulator Deluxe, the next new thing in super-controversial indie-games.

...Don't gimme those looks. You know I'm just doing it to get on the news.

-TheNew "Totally NOT a publicity whore" L

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: ... jabrwock 2006-09-15 07:08 pm UTC (link)
	I bet Strobel plays videogames on occasion himself, judging by the fact that he's alive and this is 2006 and all. See my post further up. Strobel is a self-proclaimed "technophobe" and hates using computers. He's probably never picked up a controller in his life. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: ... -

grls_r_gamers_2, 2006-09-15 07:44 pm UTC

Re: ... -

kincyr, 2006-09-15 07:30 pm UTC

	Figures it was on Sun TV bustermanzero 2006-09-15 03:14 pm UTC (link)
	Speaking as a canadian who's watched Sun TV before and read the Toronto Sun, this was probably the equivalent of an interview on G4. I mean, I'm shocked LeDonne agreed to even be interviewed by them. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: Figures it was on Sun TV gray17 2006-09-15 11:53 pm UTC (link)
	I'm presuming that he agreed to be interviewed by them because it's his game being scapegoated. As such he'd like to be on the record defending it and pointing out what a screwed up person the shooter was. Not to mention attempting to redirect attention back towards the need for parents to pay attention to their kids. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	Libel? ace_of_sevens 2006-09-15 03:32 pm UTC (link)
	Is it just me, or are Strobel's statements strongly worded enough to constitute libel? You can't go around just definitively blaming people for murder like that. Granted, Take Two is unlikely to press charges, but even sensationalist papers usually keep people a bit more reigned in. (Reply to this)

	end_fate 2006-09-15 03:36 pm UTC (link)
	There can't be a bottom-lining of GTA leading to killings. These kids have problems. A book, an argument, a game can set them off at any moment. BUT only BECAUSE it was a game are gamers being attacked. Whatever. (Reply to this)

Prime Minister Harper comments

jabrwock
2006-09-15 04:33 pm UTC (link)

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/09/14/harper-shootings.html

Harper said he's not sure how much of a role government can play when it comes to regulating access to violent imagery in videogames or on websites.

"We as a society have trouble squaring our outrage at some of the images and messages communicated to our young people" with our desire to avoid censorship, said Harper.

"We believe in freedom and are opposed to censorship."

(Reply to this)

	jdmdsp911 2006-09-15 04:44 pm UTC (link)
	Ladonne was just on Fox News a little while ago. They kept asking him if he is taking any responsibility for the shooting. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	kurisu7885 2006-09-15 06:40 pm UTC (link)
	My guess is they weren't about to accept no as an answer. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

jdmdsp911, 2006-09-15 07:41 pm UTC

beacon80
2006-09-15 05:28 pm UTC (link)

There's not a whole lot of thinking to be done about that it seems to me, or analysis. Grand Theft Auto led to those killings, bottom line.
I realize I'll probably be the 50th person to say this, but if you aren't doing any thinking or analysis, how can you say GTA did it? At least try to back up your statement. Or do we not need to do that anymore?
If that's the case, then it seems to me that there's nothing here to debate. Drinking water led to those killings, bottom line.

(Reply to this)

	Stop thinking, start FEELING! jabrwock 2006-09-15 05:32 pm UTC (link)
	Strobel said, "There's not a whole lot of thinking to be done about that it seems to me, or analysis." "I won't let facts stand in the way of what 'feels' right..." This guy is an embarassment to Canadian journalists... (Reply to this)

landale
2006-09-15 06:26 pm UTC (link)

As one of the "bullied loners" always streotyped in the news, I hate this stuff.

Everybody in life gets a set of circumstances, goes through a bunch of life lessons and problems. I got bullied every single day in school and the teachers always told me "well, you should make more of an effort to fit in". Like I knew how or wanted to be anything other than myself. I dug my heels in, I got good grades, I left school. I played video games all the way through my life because they were an escape from what I was experiencing in my life. I haven't killed anyone.

What I'm trying to say is that people blame the games, then they blame the life circumstances. But really, it's the root personality and how it reacts to the life experiences that matters. But even psychopathy and mental illness doesn't mean you'll go and kill someone - your boss could very easily be a psychopath, just not a violent one. It's a combination of factors - personality/root traits + life problems/experiences. IMO, the video games barely come into it at all. While plenty of ordinary people like myself play violent games with no problem because we can distinguish fantasy from reality, they are also a hedonistic fantasy for the fucked up soul who dreams of killing. These people are drawn to violent games/movies not because they allow them to do something they'd never be able to, but because the game plays out their dreams.

If you took away the games and the books and the music and shut these people off in a room and asked them to draw something, chances are what they'd draw would not be very pleasent. Is that the fault of the paper or the art materials? Of course not. It's the reflection of who they are. You can't censor that out of society.

The fact is, while there are lots of people and things we can potentially blame for violence, there is no easy cure. How the hell do you know what is going on in someone's head? You can't, and you shouldn't. There's no way sometimes of knowing whether someone just gets off on violent imagery but is harmless, or has crossed the line and lost the plot. I've met people in my life who've been deeply troubled, but they would never turn the knife on anyone but themselves.

But people don't want to hear that the answer's not easy. They don't want to hear that in order to improve the situation where we've got 2 or so shootings a year, we have to change things completely, that we have to stop teachers and pupils discriminating against people who are different, that we have to stop blaming victims for the abuse they suffer, and that we actually need to help people and try to reach out to them. I've heard tales of childhood that are so terrible that you know it would never be allowed to happen to an adult, but because the person is a child, and they tend to have to go through the authority of school and parents rather than police, they have to endure unspeakable abuse from parents and peers and there's nobody to help them.

It's just far easier to blame video games, and that's just another symptom of the problem; that adults don't and don't want to understand youth culture and just end up critisizing their kids and young people in general because they don't see the value in what they are doing.

-Synth

(Reply to this)

goodrobotus
2006-09-15 06:33 pm UTC (link)

Unfortunately, thinking about matters objectively seems to be a physical impossibility in certain areas of journalism and politics.

It's all about figures, either viewing or financial, and who cares if they are actually making matters worse by alienating an entire genre and placing them as social outcasts?

The more they find reasons to alienate young people, the more excuses they give to bullies and small minded hippocrites. The more excuses small minded hypocrites get, the more they will attack that genre, this has been demonstrated here on GP, by a man in his 50's, not a 'programmed' teenager.

Frankly, we are being turned into the new Blacks, 'behind every crime there's a gamer, every person who shoots a gun is a gamer (only hitmen and gamers shoot people in the face)', it's sickening to watch.

And the more this genre is attacked and ridiculed and victimised, the more young people are going to drop off the bottom of the social ladder and lose it.

So, who EXACTLY is creating these situations? Is it the games that millions of people play every day, or is it those who have finally got a little bit of power, and have used it to alienate and abuse gamers purely because 'they're not like us'?

It's a question that a lot of journalists, politicians and lawyers need to think long and hard about.

(Reply to this)

	uniquecrash5 2006-09-15 07:09 pm UTC (link)
	LeDonne seems very well-spoken, maybe the kind of person it would be nice to put in front of a camera with Jack Thompson. Seriously, it would be good to have a serious debate with the guy, and LeDonne looks capable... I'd love to see video of someone tearing down Jack's arguments nice & logically (I suspect Jack would get increasingly loud as his points got shot down)... (Reply to this)

	turbinerocks 2006-09-15 07:21 pm UTC (link)
	"There's not a whole lot of thinking to be done about that it seems to me.." Wow, a blowhard talking head who really would rather not think? What are the odds! (Reply to this)

	Re: Enlightened Opinion angry_man 2006-09-15 07:40 pm UTC (link)
	What a very well-spoken guy LeDonne is. I would love to see him go toe to toe with JT instead of Adam Sessler. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: Enlightened Opinion selphiroth 2006-09-17 12:59 pm UTC (link)
	Yes. It was disappointing to see that Sessler didn't put up an arguement that was any more valid than Thompson. (Reply to this) (Parent)

I looked at the video and the website.

terminator44
2006-09-15 08:28 pm UTC (link)

And honestly, I think we're genralizing Sun too much. I'll believe that they are pretty sensationalist, but it doesn't seem like everyone who works there is anti-game. For example, I saw a lot of news about games and gaming that wasn't all about links to violence (there was a review of Saint's Row by a Toronto Sun reporter here:http://wham.canoe.ca/360/2006/09/10/1822205-sun.html). I could be wrong, and if I am then any of you Canadian posters should correct me, but it looks to me like LeDonne's roasting had more to do with the particular reporter interviewing him (Jabrwock has already confirmed that he is an admitted technophobe).

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: I looked at the video and the website.

jabrwock
2006-09-15 11:11 pm UTC (link)

It's not so much that they're anti-game (other than columnists like Strobel), but that they're sensationalist.

Saint's Row didn't blib, because no-one's tried to link it to a murder. If a murderer *had* been a fan, you can bet the next issue's cover article would be "VIDEO GAME FUELS MURDER RAMPAGE" with "Did Saint's Row cause so-and-so to snap?"

Such an article might not do much more than mention SR in passing, and the opinion that it was the cause will be a casual remark by an officer or an "expert", as the editors will defend, but the headline will be what sells the newspaper.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	they asked for responce father_time89 2006-09-15 10:54 pm UTC (link)
	At then end they said "should violent video games be banned, e-mial us your opinion at sendit@canoelive.ca " Anyone going to give thme a respose? I might do it but I don't live in Canada. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: they asked for responce nightwng2000 2006-09-16 12:13 am UTC (link)
	Being media, I'd say e-mail them your opinion anyway. If it were an issue of politicians asking for their consituant's opinion, you'd probably be right since politicians usually only pay attention to people in their area (and not always even then). nightwng2000 NW2K Software (Reply to this) (Parent)

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