Game Politics ([info]gamepolitics) wrote,
@ 2006-09-14 06:05:00
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Entry tags:eve online, fraud, isk, julian dibbell, lian sifuentes, magnus bergsson, mmo's, virtual crime

If You Can't Do the Time, Don't Do the Game Crime

"So, what are you in for?"

"Triple homicide. You?"

"Defrauding MMO players of their virtual loot."

Could this be the future of prison inmate chit-chat? A recent CNET News story examines the potential of real world punishments for virtual crimes.

Perhaps you've heard about the EIB scandal that recently plagued the sci-fi MMORPG Eve Online? A player using the screen name "Cally" established the Eve Intergalactic Bank (EIB) - a private, in-game institution promoted as a place where other Eve Online players could invest their virtual money and accrue interest. Long story short, Cally absconded with approximately 790 billion ISK - the game's currency. At current exchange rates, that amount of ISK has a real-world value of approximately $170,000.

Where can scammed players turn in instances like this? Unfortunately, the EIB scandal was executed within the boundaries of the game's EULA. "CCP (Eve Online's publisher) does not intervene in such cases and will only get involved if a game exploit was used, which we have not found any indication of in this case," said CEO Magnus Bergsson.

If the game's creators aren't going to help, can players look to the legal system for justice? Some think fraud in an MMO should be legally actionable. "This stuff is real money," says Julian Dibbell, author of Play Money: Or, How I Quit My Day Job and Made Millions Trading Virtual Loot.

"Once the money trade is there," said Dibbell, "this stuff can be sold as quickly and sometimes more quickly than real currency."

Indeed, an Ebay search yields over 500 active auctions for Eve Online ISK.

Others are of the opinion that, at the end of the day, it's just a game. "If murder, one of real-world society's worst crimes, is commonplace in MMORPGs, why would any lesser crime be a surprise to game players?" said Lian Sifuentes, a Colorado College professor.

"If real-world ethics defined in-game strategy, almost every MMORPG would be rendered inert and, frankly, un-fun. And while being swindled may not be as fun as acquisition, as long as game play continues, everyone gets what they paid for."

AE: Here's a thought. If virtual goods are seen as real commodities, to the point that theft of said goods is illegal, how long until the federal government requires you to declare your virtual earnings on your taxes?

-Reporting from San Diego, GP Correspondent Andrew Eisen worries that his simoleon surplus will eventually bump him into a higher tax bracket




(53 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]phrawzty
2006-09-14 12:39 pm UTC (link)
I'd have to side with Sifuentes on this one: if in-game murder isn't punishable, then in-game fraud shouldn't be either. Sorry kids, ya'll lost out. :P

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]father_time89
2006-09-14 09:01 pm UTC (link)
. . . I can't believe you just said that. I thought in most RPgs you just respawned when you die. And if you get killed and lose stuff ina PvP zone, then the other person got your money fair and square. Besides in MMorpgs killing things is the name of the game and of course when you do they respawn so there is no virtual life lost and therefore isn't really murder (and even if to compare murder with playing a game is despicable to say the least) scamming people on the other hand is a (small) crime and you do actually lose stuff, valuable stuff from being cheated.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]chuma
2006-09-15 12:58 am UTC (link)
That has to be the most stupid argument I have heard in a long while. By that same argument I could hack into a bank and steal people's money but it doesn't matter because it's electronic and not 'real' money; It may have real world value but it's not physical notes...

If you defraud someone of something that has value, and especially so when they make profit out of it, there is a real case for legal action. Could it result in a prison sentence? This is less likely. However I think seeking compensation for the real world value is more than plausable.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]phrawzty, 2006-09-15 02:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]chuma, 2006-09-15 01:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]phrawzty, 2006-09-15 03:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]motorcycleparts, 2006-09-19 12:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chuma, 2006-09-19 01:31 pm UTC
How do they manage to breathe
[info]n0m4n
2006-09-14 12:47 pm UTC (link)
says Julian Dibbell, author of Play Money: Or, How I Quit My Day Job and Made Millions Trading Virtual Loot.

I miss titles like this. Now let me get this straight, they gave another player all of their money under the assumption that it would be similar to a bank transaction and are surprised it was a scam. Who are these people, I have a bridge to sell them.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: How do they manage to breathe
[info]jythie
2006-09-14 03:30 pm UTC (link)
Actually, players loaning eachother money or investing is nothing unusual in Eve. It is a significant part of the economy. Trusting someone enough is the tricky part, and in this case the 'bank' had an apparently good track record (just like such scemes usually do) and unless an equiv of the SEC looked at the details of the books, it would be hard to tell apart from more ligit investments, outside the unually good return.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: How do they manage to breathe - [info]n0m4n, 2006-09-14 08:07 pm UTC
Re: How do they manage to breathe - [info]jythie, 2006-09-14 09:03 pm UTC
Re: How do they manage to breathe - [info]ayvah, 2006-09-14 08:29 pm UTC
Re: How do they manage to breathe - [info]jythie, 2006-09-14 09:05 pm UTC
Re: How do they manage to breathe - [info]ayvah, 2006-09-14 11:46 pm UTC
Re: How do they manage to breathe - [info]jythie, 2006-09-15 03:12 am UTC

[info]kharne83
2006-09-14 01:05 pm UTC (link)
Well... On one hand I don't like that he's getting away with it I mean the idea that you can get massivly scamed and theres nothing you can really do about it if it happens, simply sucks.

On the other hand though I'm suprised so many people didn't see the bank scam coming. Honestly If your giving a random player your stuff in the hopes that it'll be returned eventually, and there's no hard-coded in-game system to make sure of that? You're basically asking to get the shaft.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]lordlundar
2006-09-14 02:03 pm UTC (link)
Agreed. It's pretty crappy that they got scammed, but this isn't even a new scam. I recall seeing these done in MUDs. Buyer beware in this case.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]awol1010
2006-09-14 01:25 pm UTC (link)
Read this and started laughing. First of all this is Eve Online a do what you want MMO. Its the best part of this game is that this stuff can happen. I loved Eve cause it didn't tell me how I had to play and allowed me to do whatever I wanted.

Also this isn't the first time a big scam has happened in Eve I'm surprised they could still happen, guess people never learn. Its not like people lost real money other than the $10/month and time to make money in the game. Yes it sucks but damn its the gamble you take in Eve by giving someone your hard earned cash and or items.

(Reply to this)


[info]jythie
2006-09-14 02:05 pm UTC (link)
Not the first 'scam' on Eve of course....

Eh, I tend to see it as, the person got the money within the rules of the game, therefor it is ligit.

I find it no less ethical then, say, robbing someone's cargo container (theft!) or jumping a trade ship and taking it's stuff (mugging!) which are pretty common practices in the game. Yet I do not hear anyone ranting about how those players should be arrested in the real world for the value of the goods stolen. There are plenty of people who, in-game, make all their ISK this way.

The part I keep trying to understand, outside the scale of it, why anyone is even contemplating this?

(Reply to this)

Virtual Loot and Real World Money
[info]nbouqu1
2006-09-14 02:06 pm UTC (link)
I made the argument that SOE opened themselves to lawsuits with the "Combat Upgrade" (to say nothing of the NGE. As it radically altered player crafted items and even some of the vetran rewards, in essence defrauding players of the value of their property (to say nothing of the game was sold on the basis that it worked like "X" not like "Y").

Oh well...

(Reply to this)


[info]rformer
2006-09-14 02:22 pm UTC (link)
I'm surprised this is news. EVE is a game designed around corruption and scandals. The company's CEO constantly brags about how the best stories in the game are those instigated by players. Almost constantly, big corporations are getting infiltrated and busted up by sneaky players. Isn't this bank-job just another one of those stories?

I do, however, support companies that take an active stand against gold farmers. That practice always upsets a game's ecomony. What's worse is that it encourages companies to actually sell their own game currancy in order to discourage farming, which in turn leads to absurd in-game inflation.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]gamepolitics
2006-09-14 02:36 pm UTC (link)
I don't think the incident itself is news as much of the more far-reaching implications.

Since MMO loot clearly has some established real-world value, if you steal something in-game, you may have deprived its owner of real money.

Is it like a casino, where you steal someone's chips?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]jythie, 2006-09-14 03:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chuma, 2006-09-15 01:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jythie, 2006-09-15 02:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]chuma, 2006-09-15 01:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jythie, 2006-09-15 04:16 pm UTC
Consistency please. - [info]chuma, 2006-09-15 06:09 pm UTC
Only if you will too. - [info]jythie, 2006-09-15 08:34 pm UTC
Re: Only if you will too. - [info]chuma, 2006-09-15 11:17 pm UTC
Re: Only if you will too. - [info]kingnat, 2006-09-17 05:26 pm UTC
Re: Only if you will too. - [info]jythie, 2006-09-18 03:44 am UTC
Easy solution
[info]philoetus
2006-09-14 02:35 pm UTC (link)
Treat game servers as "soveirgn nations." It is up to the leaders of these "countries" to determine the law, and it is the only law that applies while inside said "nation." This of course would exclude EULA violations and hacking as they are happening on the real world side and therfore do not count as inside said "nation." Of course this might cause some problems as I believe there might still be international law that must be followed, but It seems like a good model, you don't get taxed on earnings in other countries and you can't be arrested (usually) for a crime that is illegal in your home country but not where it was committed.

(Reply to this)


[info]goodrobotus
2006-09-14 03:08 pm UTC (link)
I think there has to be a limit to it to be honest, I'm an Eve player, and I don't really have enough money to put any in a Bank anyway (not that I'd even trust my own corp with my money like that anyway), so it didn't bother me, however, in real life, if such a man was caught, he would have had his accounts siezed and the money returned and refunded to its owners.
In Eve there is no comeback, the worst you can do to him is shoot him, and when Tech 1 Frigates are around 20,000 each, and even Battleships are 80-100 million, even losing his ship every day for the next year won't make a reasonable dent in those funds.
It's not the 'Freedom to perform that act' that is the problem in Eve, it's the fact it is also virtually impossible to do anything about it if you are a victim. THAT is where the imbalance lays in my opinion.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]jythie
2006-09-14 04:30 pm UTC (link)
Good point there.

Outside blowing up the peep's ship and pod,... not much one can really do. In >0.5 space I could see adding some kind of system where people could be added to a SoS list for all those wonderful guns around the warpgates....

Maybe what we need is a way to capture lifepods and potentially hold people? That would add prisons and kidnappings oh joy!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]van_x_51
2006-09-14 03:34 pm UTC (link)
MMO's are no safer than your inbox people..

"Im a prince in South Africa and if you transfer 200 million into my bank account..."

Never trade something without knowing there is a chance you will never get anything in return/back. Is this a paranoid approach? Yep. Have I ever been scammed in all my years of MMO's? Nope!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]gamepolitics
2006-09-14 03:46 pm UTC (link)
you mean that prince guy was a fake?

Damn.

Oh, well, I've still got the dead general's brother who wants me to help him squirrel $30 million out of the country...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

In the words of MC Frontalot - [info]m0lim0, 2006-09-14 05:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]father_time89, 2006-09-14 09:07 pm UTC

[info]kevinq2000
2006-09-14 03:35 pm UTC (link)
I think that if a game is going to allow this sort of thing to happen, then there needs to be an in-game way for the players to police themselves, if need be. Within the game world "wrong" and "right" mean different things, and trying to police them with outside laws won't help.

If there were some way to affect a player's reputation, or ability to play the game, then these sorts of things would be reduced. (Though hopefully never eliminated, because they sure do make the game interesting.)

K

(Reply to this) (Thread)

But there is a way...
[info]dog_welder
2006-09-14 04:36 pm UTC (link)
In Eve the player who pulled off this scam is undoubtedly blacklisted and on everybody's "Kill on Sight" list. The guy's reputation is absolutely ruined at this point.

The big joke though is he pulled off such an impressive scam that it just doesn't matter to him. Any losses he suffers are negligible compared to what he gained.

And I agree with the majority above -- this is a game where you're allowed to rob, pirate, and assassinate other characters. "Real world" laws should not be brought in if the actions are taken within the confines of the game as long as no exploit in the software was used.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]finaleve
2006-09-14 04:35 pm UTC (link)
Well let's seee, first of all, you trusted your money with a stranger...
Next, you literally voided all rights as a human being with such an action.

...excuse me "victims", but do you need your floaties? How the hell do you think, considering the fact that there are worse people out there that can do things like that...like lets say a REAL BANK.

However, it's an online game. Online games are made to replicate life within certain boundaries, this case a sci-fi game. If you get screwed over in a game, you have to take actions IN GAME. Not outside...just like theres not outside to life when you accidentally buy volcano insurance in New Jersey. Just plain stupid.

(Reply to this)

Having trouble sleeping? Try watching Cally brag.
[info]andrew_eisen
2006-09-14 05:36 pm UTC (link)
http://dl.qj.net/index.php?pg=12&fid=9542&catid=476

Seriously, I only managed to watch about 30 seconds before nodding off. A scam artist perhaps but he has the charisma and the oratory skills of a fruit fly.


Andrew Eisen

(Reply to this)


[info]no_fish
2006-09-14 08:10 pm UTC (link)
I'm fully with CCP on this one, as an EVE player. It would be absurd for fraud to be punishable by banning in a game where an encouraged style of play is to blow up defenseless miners, loot the wreckage, and ransom the escape pod.

(Reply to this)


[info]father_time89
2006-09-14 08:57 pm UTC (link)
Here's a thought. If virtual goods are seen as real commodities, to the point that theft of said goods is illegal, how long until the federal government requires you to declare your virtual earnings on your taxes?

Well let's see your virtual character does not live in real-life united states and well if the government tried to pull something like that it wouldn't be pretty.

(Reply to this)

Just thought I'd point this out
[info]father_time89
2006-09-14 09:02 pm UTC (link)
If the RIAA can sue people for "stealing" virtual music online then why can't someone be punished for scamming someone out of virtual goods?

(Reply to this)

TBH
[info]premo_maggot
2006-09-14 10:16 pm UTC (link)
I play Eve-Online and have been doing so for quite some time and never heard of this before o_O

(Reply to this)


[info]seangrimm
2006-09-14 10:28 pm UTC (link)
They got scammed. I feel sorry for those people but keep laws out of my videogames. I've had virtual items taken from me back when I was a teen playing Diablo & Diablo 2, I got pissed and forgot about it eventually.

Once you get real life laws involved in virtual games you're going to get into a big quagmire that can lead to state regulated videogames, and no developer wants the government censoring and regulating what they can have in a videogame.

(Reply to this)

Quick fix
[info]sigma_7
2006-09-15 01:39 am UTC (link)
A quick fix, already implemented by most MMORPG developers, is to prohibit trading virtual goods for real money. It's made much stronger when reinforced with a tutorial that clearly states that the trading system is only designed to enforce individual transactions and does not keep track of promises. (Especially when you include EULA clauses stating that the game is not designed for trading vitrual goods for real money.)

It's sort of like the Illuminati: New World Order (a TCG) - immediate trades are binding, but promises are not. It's a measure of seeing how much you trust rivals or friends if you go for promises. However, sticking with a immediate trades is a great way to keep friends among rivals - right up until the "I Lied" card.

(Reply to this)

its simple
[info]zippydsmlee
2006-09-15 08:22 pm UTC (link)
he defrauded people on a large scale the Devs should be able to set things right they are the god and the law.
if they can not because the ELUA protects the tricky bastard then they need to change the EULA to prevent things like this from happening.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: its simple
[info]jythie
2006-09-15 09:11 pm UTC (link)
The game is specificly written to allow things like this, altering the EULA to prevent it would be counterproductive.

Backstabing, scams, scandles, corperate spys, etc, are all as much a part of Eve as the BFG9000 and shotgun are part of Doom. They are mearly more ways to get the drop on other players beyond Pkills.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: its simple - [info]zippydsmlee, 2006-09-15 11:48 pm UTC

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