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If the recent disappointing Attack of the Show debate between Jack Thompson, G4's Adam Sessler and GameDaily's Mark Friedler left you yearning for some real give-and-take, I've got some suggestions.
Would you like to hear a lively debate that lasts more than eight minutes, involves in-depth discussion of game-related issues, and features speakers who are eloquent and well-mannered? Well, thanks to Gamasutra, now you can.
Available as part of a series of weekly podcasts alternating between original Gamasutra content and Game Developers Conference recordings, readers can download last March's Murder, Sex and Censorship: Debating the Morals of Creative Freedom panel. As reported by GamePolitics, the lively discussion, moderated by the IGDA's Sex SIG chair Brenda Brathwaite, featured IGDA Executive Director Jason Della Rocca, California Assemblyman Leland Yee, architect of his state's controversial video game law, and author James Gee (What Video Games Have to Teach Us About Learning and Literacy).
I'd also like to recommend you check out a debate originally planned to take place between Della Rocca and the National Institute on Media and the Family's David Walsh, a leading critic of games and the game industry. Brenda Brathwaite's superb Sex & Games blog brought the event to our attention. Video Games: Content and Responsibility was a panel held recently at Siggraph. Some very nice recaps can be found at Gamasutra and CNET News. As it turns out, Walsh couldn't make it and was replaced by the University of California's Elizabeth Losh (pictured).
Who?
I wasn't familiar with the name either, so I did a bit of checking and found that Losh is the Writing Director of the Humanities Core Course at U.C. Irvine as well as the voice behind the VirtualPolitik blog, where she also wrote about her experience on the Siggraph panel.
"I don't have any moralistic objections to videogames, so it was interesting to be the designated skeptic," Losh commented, going on to detail a few of the issues she raised at the panel. Among those:
- Educational video games are no replacement for real live teachers.
- Government-funded games used for education and training of the military are often designed to show the media something is being done about the problem (like poor Arabic skills or poor IED spotting) rather than solve it.
- Kids can't exercise their creativity in games as well as they can in real life. So, put down Guitar Hero and learn to play the real thing.
The following day, Losh quipped that because she had been chosen to stand in for Walsh, she felt qualified to make her own list of cyber-safety tips.- Play video games with your children
- Talk to your kids about game politics (AE: I can think of a great resource.)
- Distrust ratings and do your own research on the appropriateness of a game or film
- Keep the family computer in a public space of your home
- Set boundaries on media use
-Reporting from San Diego, GP Correspondent Andrew Eisen swears he only reads the Sex & Games blog for the articles
August 28 2006, 12:31:57 UTC 5 years ago
Dennis got a question
Was the GDC debate before or after the California Law was Injoined in court, casue if so, then it explains why yee was not pressed about his law being shot down in court.Either way, great job on this, I really enjoyed the debate, and was very impressed with the seemingly intelligent, if misguided approach yee took to it. But it's clear that if this debate were held now, he'd probably be much more defensive, and the questions would be much much more vicious I think since his bill seems to be DOA.
Either way, thanks for the info.
August 28 2006, 17:24:01 UTC 5 years ago
Re: Dennis got a question
Was the GDC debate before or after the California Law was Injoined in court...After.
http://gamepolitics.livejournal.com/164
The law was blocked in December and the debate was held the following March.
Andrew Eisen
August 28 2006, 12:38:39 UTC 5 years ago
While the ESRB ratings ARE rather good imho, she still makes a very valid (and good) statement. :)
After all, it doesn't hurt to look into what your kid is doing! ;)
August 28 2006, 12:45:33 UTC 5 years ago
They were not designed to be a replacement for live teachers. Kinda like how the goverment should not be a replacement for real live parents.
- Distrust ratings and do your own research on the appropriateness of a game or film
Why? The ratings are about 98% effective. There are people who want to get rid of a good working rating system becuase they'd rather focus on the remaining 2% (Hot Coffee, and Oblivion re-rating). Then take that 2% and blow it out of proportion. Things she and other people like her should know is that:
1. The ESRB is a guideline, not an enforcement. That is left to the people who get to have that job. The Parents.
2. The ESRB would be more efficitive if (and only if) the parents take the time to look a game over before buying it.
- REAL Debates on Games (hint: they don't include you-know-who)
Wow. I didn't know that Lord Voldemort was an anti-gamer.
...Okay. I was just kidding. I knew you were refering to Thompson. I saw that line there and couldn't resist.
- Warren Lewis
August 28 2006, 13:46:28 UTC 5 years ago
they are 98% accurate but they are very vague. I mean, stating that a game is meant for 17+, contains lots of blood, lots of violence, etc. doesn't really tell you that much about the game itself. It does give out the things that the average parents wants to watch out for, but it doesn't give you anything like an in depth look. When it comes to understanding a game (or any media), nothing beats actually researching the game. A good game review will tell you everything the ESRB tells you and much, much more.
-1. The ESRB is a guideline, not an enforcement. That is left to the people who get to have that job. The Parents.
2. The ESRB would be more efficitive if (and only if) the parents take the time to look a game over before buying it.-
and She seems to understand both those points well....
1. she never said that the ESRB ratings were supposed to be anything more than a guideline...
2. the only difference between what you say here and what she said that she said "no esrb" and you said "use esrb"... however she's technically as right as you are because as i said before, researching a game will usually tell you everything the esrb says and more, thus when you go actually research games the esrb rating becomes rather pointless... We wouldn't even need a rating system if parents just looked up the info for themselves (which what she is asking parents to do)
Oh and also, if you noticed she's not commenting on the ESRB, she's commenting on ratings systems in general... not just video games, but movies, and other forms of rated media... she's essentially saying "instead of using vague ratings for media, get an strong indepth look"
though i'll admit, "distrust" is a bit strong of a word; that makes it sound like the ratings are wrong... i'd probably go with something a little easier like "ignore"... or i would have just not mention the ratings and simply said "research the game/film"
August 28 2006, 17:00:41 UTC 5 years ago
I agree, although reading her reasoning why I can see why she said it. Stuff like KidScore being focused on negative reviews, and skipping over positive games like DDR (which has never gotten a KidScore review), or the fact that ratings can possibly be linked to real or imagined political pressuring. (she lists two movies, one is rated R but is suitable for teens with parental supervision, the other is listed as PG-13 but is unsuitable...)
Her wording was a little harsh, and I disagree with dismissing the ratings entirely, but I do think they offer a good "first glance" review for a parent perusing the title list on a store shelf...
August 28 2006, 18:28:27 UTC 5 years ago
Here's the way I see it. The Avarage parent should be going....
Mature 17+?
Blood and Gore?
Intense Violence?
Strong Language?
Strong SEXUAL Content?
Use uf Drugs?
From what I see here This game must be for someone Seventeen years and older. There is a lot of bloodshed. and it is very violent. there is a lot very nasty things being said in this game. It looks like sex plays a large part in this game. And there might be drug use in this game. And they might not be talking over-the-counter Advil at that. If. If this means what I think it means then I should not be getting this for my 12 year old child.
END. OF. STORY.
Yes parents should get all the information they can on a game. Maybe more if you need more convincing. But The esrb is helpful and to all the anti-gamers (ahem, I ment Anti-Violence people) out there, It's not a broken system. You just have to take maybe five to ten (fifteen tops) minutes out of your busy day to do a little research on a game your child wants. I agree. Do your reasearch. Don't have time? If your child is improtant to you then you will make time. She said one thing I'll agree with. Play the games with your child. (If time permits.) Who knows? You can both learn about the game together. And if it's a one-player game, then take turns. Thats what my mother did. I learned almost every secret I know in Super Mario Brothers by playing with her.
- Warren Lewis
August 29 2006, 22:23:55 UTC 5 years ago
It seems that what was basically said is that lazy parents shouldn't buy the educational games to solely teach their child. This person is smart, not a numb-dut like Jackie-boy. she knows that games =/= teachers, she trying to get every lazy parent to see that and understand it.
//Why? The ratings are about 98% effective. There are people who want to get rid of a good working rating system because they'd rather focus on the remaining 2% (Hot Coffee, and Oblivion re-rating). Then take that 2% and blow it out of proportion.//
That seemed to be meant to disprove the people who DO blow the 2% out of proportion. In lay-mens (sp?) terms, she basically said "either watch what your child is playing, or stfu about the rating if you're the one that got it for them and don't pay one lick of attention to them".
August 28 2006, 14:30:49 UTC 5 years ago
I can't say anything about what she said, and plus, thats a really cool scarf. I wonder where she got that scarf from.
August 28 2006, 16:56:27 UTC 5 years ago
YES!
August 28 2006, 17:25:13 UTC 5 years ago
Education....
* Educational video games are no replacement for real live teachers.Says who?
Honestly, I learn a lot more outside of school than I do in school.
Nowadays, media formats such as Comic Books and Video Games are doing a better job teaching education and moral values than most schools and parents do.
Now this isnt just the fault of "No Child Left Behind", public schools have been screwed up for the longest time now.
The problem is that many adults today underestimate the potential that today's generation holds. So insteed of embracing that potential, many parents, teachers and politicans would rather try to shove eduacation down the throats of students rather than trying to explain it to them throughly.
Not only does this bring about a failed education system, but also influences underage drinking, drug use and other problems with today's youth.
As part of the new generation I can honestly say that we are not stupid. We want to learn, and we have more potential than the older generations ever had. But if we are going to be treated as fools and underlings, we arent going to learn
August 29 2006, 05:37:23 UTC 5 years ago
Re: Education....
"Nowadays, media formats such as Comic Books and Video Games are doing a better job teaching education and moral values than most schools and parents do."The question is, are you going to play a game (in your own time) or read a comic book that describes the methods and theories behind complex algebra... imaginary numbers...cell membrane formation...blastocyst formation etc?
Don't think so, in fact you probably never would have known about them if it was not for school.
"The problem is that many adults today underestimate the potential that today's generation holds. So insteed of embracing that potential, many parents, teachers and politicans would rather try to shove eduacation down the throats of students rather than trying to explain it to them throughly.
...As part of the new generation I can honestly say that we are not stupid. We want to learn, and we have more potential than the older generations ever had. But if we are going to be treated as fools and underlings, we arent going to learn"
I would think if the 'new generation' are so clever and keen to learn they could handle more information at a faster rate (and probably work in there own time to understand it) rather than being spoon-fed less or 'having it explained to them thoroughly'.
I think you fail to see the other end of the spectrum- schools (especially public) have to teach to people who can't pick it up very fast (there are just as many children below average as there are above average). Frankly the reason I disliked school and was 'influenced' to drink underage etc (had nothing to do with school actually... read the papers and an increase in risktaking during prepubescence/pubescence is normal for human development) is because I was bored!... they were explaining simple things too thoroughly and teaching too much stuff that I wasn't interested in learning. You can't avoid this because the one kid who goes 'miss can you explain this to me (more thoroughly)' uses teacher time when other students are ready to move on. Additionally, you need to have a bit of everything thrown at you in primary/secondary schooling because who knows you may find out you like something that you never would have done othewise.
"we want to learn"
you would have had a good time at a steiner school then... *joke*
I agree that the education system isn't perfect but I dislike hypocritical comments like 'School teaches us stuff too quickly and doesn't explain it well enough: yet we have so much potential, we want to learn and there are so many other resources available to us now. How am I supposed to keep up?'
August 29 2006, 09:27:46 UTC 5 years ago
Re: Education....
You need a good dose of both, I think; I learned quite a bit when I was a kid sitting in front of the computer, whether it was the problem-solving skills needed for Zork (just dated myself, I know), or memorization skills for a program designed to help you learn the capitals of the 50 states. Anybody remember Oregon Trail?School was more about how I grew as a person than what I learned out of books. That being said, you need real teachers, period. I can remember numerous teachers/professors that made a positive lasting impression on me, and even if you don't feel that you're learning anything from them because they're all boring, mean, incompetent, whatever, look at it this way: no teachers = no schools = no diploma = no college = no career = no future. (In most cases)
Also keep in mind that in our teenage years we're a lot more rebellious; we want to pick and choose what we learn during a time when we need to learn everything we can just to get ahead of the next guy, so it's easy to feel like education is being "shoved down our throats." (I'm 30, btw.)
"...we have more potential than the older generations ever had."
I'd like to know what sort of concrete evidence that statement is based on. It seems extremely subjective, IMHO.
August 28 2006, 18:24:32 UTC 5 years ago
Leland Yee Frustrates me
The GDC podcast was mostly great, but it Leland Yee repeating the same misleading memes over and over frustrated me. I felt like every few minutes,1)"I'm a psychologist, games are bad, See military, craig anderson, hoooray!"
2)"It's for the Children!"
3)"Why can't we legislate games, we legislate Cigarretes!"
4)"Why can't we legislate games, we legislate porn!"
Thankfully the answered him on most of his points. The research sucks, and since it was another academic, he couldn't just play the "I'm a psychologist card." The military doesn't use these games to train for killing, they use it for teamwork.
Everytime he brought up cigarrettes, they called him on it. Cigarrettes aren't media, smoking isn't free speach.
The fourth was the one that angered me. He kept saying we prevent kids from buying porn because we have a predicate that it is harmful. That's false, we prevent kids from buying porn because porn isn't considered speech (Hence the Socially redeeming value). One of the questioners called him on comparing games to porn, but no one got to the core of the issue, as to why comaparing porn to games doesn't fit.
One thing I do respect Yee more for, I thought that this was just a re-election stunt. Listening to him on that panel though, it's obvious that he does believe what he's doing is the right thing. Even if he's wrong, it's still better than the LA, MI, or MN laws that are obviously on the ballots to shore up failing support for their canidates.
Char
August 29 2006, 05:04:16 UTC 5 years ago
Re: Leland Yee Frustrates me
I know someone who's not gonna vote for Leland Yee, and that someone's gonna be me.August 28 2006, 18:32:21 UTC 5 years ago
But guitar hero is fun
That's why we play it. The simplicity of a game like Guitar Hero, playing songs and trying to be have fun whilst beating each other's high score. I mean, DDR is like that, but DDR takes physical skill to do that...anyways, she seems to be the right minded parent, but that's the thing...few parents would do that.
Most of them are "too busy" to take care fo the kids, and its too much work to pay attention to what the kids are doing...
sure the ratings seem odd, but hell...i Mature game with a 17+ on it shouldn't really be toyed with at a younger age, yet parents ignore that...
...researching the game/film is a good idea...but parents are too busy to care.