Game Politics ([info]gamepolitics) wrote,
@ 2006-08-02 06:36:00
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Entry tags:book reviews, julian dibbell, mmo, play money, rmt

GP Book Review: "Play Money"

Play Money: Or, How I Quit My Day Job and Made Millions Trading Virtual Loot
by Julian Dibbell
reviewed for GamePolitics by Matt Paprocki


It was a simple goal for Julian Dibbell.

Fascinated by real-world selling of virtual goods, he sought to prove that he could make more money in one year trading items from massively multiplayer online games (MMO's) than he had ever earned as a freelance writer. The process of carrying this idea to fruition would, for Dibbell, become a blog and later, Play Money. The book details the ups and downs of his business endeavors over the course of his experiment in trafficking virtual items.

Having gotten his mind around the process of selling goods that don't even exist, Dibbell began his career in virtual commerce by trading gold and items from Ultima Online. He would stay with the seminal MMO for most of the book, only occasionally mentioning other titles such as Everquest.

Play Money is an easy and enjoyable read as Dibbell displays a flair for humor throughout. The author's dealings with real-life sellers of MMO gold and similarly valuable UO items are carefully recounted, including several rough spots when business ventures don't quite go as planned. Dibbell seems to have become acquainted with most of the major players in the real-money trading (RMT) business, and they are a sketchy cast of characters, indeed. Conversations are kept unedited in their original form, including one that barely raises itself above a four-letter word screed.

Although he mostly works from his PC at home, Dibbell's nascent MMO business occasionally takes him to far-flung places. One of his rather bizarre encounters led him to Mexico where he expected to be shown a sweatshop of UO farmers. The purported owners of the sweatshop, the shadowy BlackSnow Interactive, failed to show up, perhaps because the much-ballyhooed item farming facility was as ethereal as the Ultima Online gold traded by BlackSnow.

Dibbell also has a serious flirtation with a Chinese businessman as they attempt to set up farming operations, first in UO and later in Everquest. Marital discord, apparently caused in part by his dedication to the MMO business, sends Dibbell cross-country. Enroute to crash with his sister in San Francisco while he sorts out his life, the author recounts doing gold trades from a variety of WiFi-enabled truck stops along the way.

Near the end of his quest to earn a living playing Ultima Online, Dibbell's tale begins to run out of steam just a bit. Some late chapters turn out to be little more than cut-and-pastes from the blog he maintained during his quest for MMO riches. For those who followed his MMO career shift as it unfolded, the final 75 or so pages will look awfully familiar. Even so, the tale of Dibbell's risky MMO venture proves both educational and entertaining. There's a lot to learn here about hard-nosed business dealing as well as the vagaries of supply and demand in an uncertain marketplace.

Naturally, this is a controversial subject. Nothing makes some MMO fans angrier than the idea of selling gold and virtual items. And yet, it's a big business. Not to give too much away, but I should point out that the "millions" referenced in the title are virtual. Dibbell's actual earnings while far less, are still impressive, especially given that the things he sold never really existed.

Play Money's firsthand account is unique, original, and well worth the cover price, in real dollars, no less.




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MMugh
[info]rayzak2000
2006-08-02 12:27 pm UTC (link)
Having been suckered into several MMO's over the years, I just don't understand why people care. Are peoples lives so void of accomplishment and social fulfillment that the only way they feel 'normal' is to perform behind a pre-manufactured character model?

I've regrettably bought into Everquest, Anarchy Online, Guild Wars, and a bunch of free MMO's and betas (Auto Assault being the latest), and the experience has always made me feel empty and disgusted. The very idea of paying somebody money for an in game item that doesn't exist just seems absurd. I'd rather take that money, go down town, see a live show, go on a road trip, anything. Get some life experiences rather than cut off the rest of the world.

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Re: MMugh
[info]gamepolitics
2006-08-02 01:37 pm UTC (link)
I don't get insanely into MMO's, although I've played WoW off and on since it launched.

I was into Asheron's Call for a while, and, as a reviewer, I tried a few other including UO, SWG, some awful car racing game that EA had a few years back, etc...

I've bought gold, don't see anything wrong with it. Each unto his own...

But I sure got a lot of hate mail when I wrote a newspaper column about buying gold. The topic inflames passions, for sure.

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Re: MMugh
[info]rayzak2000
2006-08-02 01:54 pm UTC (link)
I think that one was called Motor City? I actually wanted to try that. I love racing games, and having one online seemed fun. In theory I could log on, race for 20 minutes, and log off. If I remember, the city you were in was free roaming?

I've been playing online RPG's since the days of BBS's. I graduated to MUD's and role play chat in the mid 90's. Those games could be played in 20-40 minute spats, and I knew the people I gamed with. We LEFT OUR HOMES and hung out, went places, did things. Ultima Online comes along, and suddenly having short spats of fun changed into 20 hour level grinding sessions. No thank you.

It's not the online aspect I dislike, it's the boredom of turn based RPG's, level grinding, and the guild mentality people develop in and outside their game of choice. In a guild, everybody is required to kiss everybody else's butt or your booted. In the real world, these people expect that same level of butt puckering from strangers and co-workers, and flip out like 8 year olds when it doesn't happen.

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Re: MMugh
[info]brokenscope
2006-08-02 10:46 pm UTC (link)
I agree about the guild mentality thing. I've had friends who stopped calling each other by there real names at school and just started using their main characthers name. They really don't talk to anyone who doesn't play the game ethier.

I really only get on my char nowadays to go on a raid twice a week. And keep my pvp rank up. I lost most of my interest in wow because i was never very tolerant of the bullshit that many guilds make you go through. I don't get enough time to get DKP, and I always seem to rub the guild officers wrong.
I've been tossed out of 3 guilds now because i basically told the GM that he can go fuck himself. Once ive been thru AQ im gonna stop playing.

It really isn't worth the investment.

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Re: MMugh
[info]philoetus
2006-08-02 02:17 pm UTC (link)
Let me start off by saying I'm not a huge MMO Fan (I just don't see them as worth so much investment). I'm not sure I agree with the assertion that items in game are "non-existant" as you and gp point out. These Items are digital yes, and only yours in that the company maintaining the game allows you to keep them, but in many ways this is similar to DRM'ed software/content. You're paying money for the right to use a series of 1's and 0's, the only difference is you get a shiny physical disk to go with it (and that's if you don't use some kind of download service).

I say if it makes 'em happier to spend $15 dollars on the "Shiny wand of the beyond" than it does to go see the latest Adam Sandler flick, far be it from me to say they're wasting their money.

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Re: MMugh
[info]barfo
2006-08-02 07:31 pm UTC (link)
"I'd rather take that money, go down town, see a live show, go on a road trip, anything. Get some life experiences rather than cut off the rest of the world."

Or even better, take that money and buy another game, since that is likely to provide much more enjoyment per dollar (and often a much more carefully designed or complex accomplisment tree structure) than any of those other activities you mention. Even better if the other game is also an MMO or at least a game with an online MP component you can get the already mentioned better life experiences and you dont have to shut out the rest of the world either like with a single player game.

The idea that in-game items don't exist is somewhat absurd since of course they exist, to the extent that anythign in your computer exists (such as that nice e-book you just bought, or the fantastic digital art that you made using photoshop, or your tax return which you filled out using tax prep software and filed electronically), and it seems that if one believes your premise then we might as well not have computers at all since their contents don't 'exist'.

The silly thing (to me; i suppose to be making a rigorously supported categorization of gil-buyers as silly here) about buying gil to me is that its something that you can get merely by investing time in the game anyways. It seems that the main reason for people to want ot buy gil is that they somehow imagine that the item they are getting will allow them to play a much more fun game than the game they would have to play to earn the money for that item through the in-game means. The thing is that situation can really only be resulting from a badly designed game (or rather a badly designed game element, since even an overall good game has some bad elements), and thus it is sort of a vicious cycle since once may skip a certain amount of grind only to find that the new item merely unlocks another bad design element (or regeime) which one would want to skip (via gil purchase) in order to get to the next milestone which should promise *even betterer* game play fun. If its truly the case that this becomes a recurring theme, then the solution is not to buy the gil over and over, its rather to switch to a game (only choose a 'real life activity' for those who find it difficult to embrace new technologies) which has a better reward tree structure such that one actually enjoys the pacing of the grind/payout without wanting to subvert it.

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Re: MMugh
[info]rayzak2000
2006-08-02 10:33 pm UTC (link)
"buy another game, since that is likely to provide much more enjoyment per dollar (and often a much more carefully designed or complex accomplisment tree structure) than any of those other activities you mention."

Wow.. just...yikes.

Have fun with your life dude.

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Re: MMugh
[info]barfo
2006-08-02 11:15 pm UTC (link)
I'll take your attempt to shift the argument into ad hominem territory via an implied personal attack on me as tacit admission that you have no actual arguments able to refute my trashing of your original supressed premise that the activities you mention are in some way demonstrably superior to the activities I mention.

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Re: MMugh
[info]rayzak2000
2006-08-03 01:00 am UTC (link)
Oh no man. You got me. You are 100% right. Tonight, after I kiss my baby boy on the cheak, put him to bed, and lay down next to my loving wife, I'll cry because I've never experienced the thrill of pretending I'm an elf at 1280x1024.

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Re: MMugh
[info]barfo
2006-08-03 05:11 pm UTC (link)
You once again resort to fallacy (straw man attack). Im not arguing that kissing your baby goodnight and layign down with your wife are inferior to playing a video game, your original point was that things like "going down town", seeing a "live show", or going on a "road trip" were all implied much superior to playing MMOs. So i was of course always in agreement with you that ones family responsibilities are much more important than gaming. This fallacious argument could just as easily be applied against what you say: I could claim that one should stay at home playing video games rathre than go down town because kissing ones wife and child and laying to bed with them every night were more important than going down town every night to get wasted on ecstasy at raves or drunk off their ass at bars (what the people that i knew who went down town regularly were usually doing, which is of course another straw man because i am inventing the meanign of your terms to my advantage, much as you do with your depiction of MMO). Fact is that both of those arugments are worthless as family responsibilities are neither apropos or even mutually exclusive with the things i (or you) am suggesting, and you still present no objective evidence or reasoned logic for why the entertainment options you picked are somehow superior to MMO's or why the specific advantages I mention are invalid, other than what seems to be some large personal bias that you have in particular against them.

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Re: MMugh
[info]rayzak2000
2006-08-04 01:05 am UTC (link)
I stopped taking you seriously after your first run on sentence. “and often a much more carefully designed or complex accomplishment tree structure“. Stating that you don't understand the difference between reality and fantasy really dulls any 'Public Speaking 101' terms you find in the back of your class book.

And I love this one..

“...present no objective evidence or reasoned logic for why the entertainment options you picked are somehow superior to MMO's or why the specific advantages I mention are invalid, other than what seems to be some large personal bias that you have in particular against them. “

So, my 'personal bias isn't enough to dislike something? I need Barfo's permission to have an opinion? You're the perfect example of Guild Mentality. You surround yourself with yes men guild members. Then after unleashing yourself on the outside world, you flip out when somebody actually challenges your opinion.

The difference is, I can't be banned from your guild no matter how much you dislike like my opinion. At some point you're going to meet another person like me, who thinks some opinion or argument of yours is ridiculous, only this time they will be your boss. What will you do then? Start regurgitating last weeks Public Speaking exam like you did here? Flip out and say that his opinion is wrong, regardless of his life experience? I've worked with guys like that in the past, they get fired.

Leave your house, talk to people you don't know, build some self confidence, take a 'where the wind blows' vacation, then come talk to me. I was once like you in 1997...
http://www.discreaderror.net/pics/sogoth.jpg

Then I went to college, experienced things with an open mind, and now I'm a much better person with more in life to look forward to than the next epic item drop.

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Re: MMugh
[info]barfo
2006-08-04 05:32 pm UTC (link)
wow, to me you seem to be going a bit strong on the ad hominem attacks, to the extent that you seem to have a really strong beliefs about such non-aprospos details as your impression of my life which heretofore has not been a subject of discussion. It saddens me because such digressions wastes our time and advances us no further towards mutual understanding.

"So, my 'personal bias isn't enough to dislike something? I need Barfo's permission to have an opinion?"

I was never intending to comment on whether or not you should like something, or interstitiate myself as some sort of gatekeeper for your likes and dislikes (my sincere apologies if this was not clear), or say that your opinion was wrong (int he connotation of wrong for you). What i have said is that your opinion is insufficient to support the points that you make, and that in absence of the underlying reasons it fails to logically refute my arguments. Remember that the initial argument was in the manner of giving advice to a hypothetical someone, that hopefully both of us realize is just a convenient metaphor for advice that each of us is giving to the general community of GP readers at large, who was thinking about giving money to buy gold in whatever MMO game he was playing (and we were offering a better use for that money). You were offering him advice that this meant he should give up the game and go do things out ("go down town", "see a live show", and "road trip", were your examples). Now its totally fine that those activities are your preferences, but you were not in a role of stating your preferences per se, you were offering advice. Its a poor advice giver who when his advice is challenged cannot give any particular reasons for their advice other than "that is what i would do", especially if the other side has offered actual reasons (in this case that the idea that going out is somehow a priori better than staying in in terms of entertainment is not supported in any fact, as well as the point that games can be more efficient on a money/time basis than most other entertainment options, and that they in many cases are more complex and can offer more personalized, complex reward structures as compared to say passively seeing a show, or going on a road trip which puts you into an environment which is not as carefully designed as an MMO one). Now i am under no impression that my arguments are foolproof or solid, there probably are plenty of flaws to point out in them which id be happy to discuss, but your particlar preference (devoid of the reasoning behind your preference) is inapt in a case where we are discussing anything but what you should be doing. Which we are not.

As a quick example of why i can contend that your preferences are inapt to this particular discussion wihtout that meaning that they are explicitly invalid for you, consider the following. I hate peanut butter very much, i find it disgusting and i would never eat it, and if i am in a room where somebody is eating it and i can smell it i try to politely extricate myself from it. If then, I were to go onto a food thread and post under a topic duscussing peanut butter sandwiches and say that everybody should not be eating peanut butter sandwiches they should be eating egg salad (my fav) then users of that forum would be very apt in pointing out some percieved strengths of peanut butter: its one of the cheapest sandwiches you can make in terms of the amount of nutrition (egg salad is more expensive), it is also good because it stores long time (eggs go bad within a week or two) and it is quick to make (egg salad takes me about 20 minutes just to boil the eggs and prepare it) and requires less cookign gadgets to make and thus can be made on the fly (egg salad you need at a minimum a pot and some heat source like a burner or a camping stove). With those arguments out then a strong case seems to be made for peanut butter, and merely repeating that my preference is for anythign but peanut butter really has not merit or validity in that context of advising everybody on what sandwich they should eat.

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Re: MMugh
[info]iqpierce
2006-08-03 10:47 pm UTC (link)
...Here's what he's saying, barfo.

You said: "buy another game, since that is likely to provide much more enjoyment per dollar (and often a much more carefully designed or complex accomplisment tree structure) than any of those other activities you mention."

My reaction, like his, is "wow... just... yikes."

Why? Well, imagine you witnessed an exchange like this:

-------------

Bobby: "Hey, Johnny, you wanna come out to play? We're going to build a fort."

Johnny: "Well I could. But it will be hard work you know... it will take hours."

Bobby: "Yeah it will be hard, but it will be fun too, and when we're done, won't it be great to have a fort to play in? And to know that you built it?"

Johnny: "Well sure but... I can get those same sensations with this new device."

Bobby: "Huh?"

Johnny: "Yeah it's this device that I plug directly into the hippocampus of my brain. It then stimulates my cortex such that I experience the sensation of being challenged, for about twenty seconds; after which it causes me to experience the sensation of having just accomplished something, for about five seconds."

Bobby: "Uh..."

Johnny: "I used to like the ones that only simulated the experience of challenge for twelve seconds, but these days I feel like I need more of a challenge."

Bobby: "What...."

Johnny: "So you see it gives my brain a much more carefully designed and complex accomplishment tree structure. Building a fort... it's arbitrary, man. It's, like, two hours of being somewhat challenged, for just a few minutes of accomplishment. Not nearly as good a ratio. And we might not be able to finish it... I have no guarantee that I'll be able to experience the sensation of accomplishment at all."

Bobby: "But... you're not actually accomplishing anything sitting there with a device in your head... we're going to actually have a fort when we're done."

Johnny: "So what? It feels exactly I'm accomplishing all kinds of stuff. More stuff than you losers will get done all day! Look, you go ahead and engage in your primitive caveman pasttimes, but I think they're a total waste of my time and skills. Now if you excuse me, I'm going to sit still in the corner with my cortex stimulator for 7 or 8 hours."

Bobby: "...Exactly what skills were these again?"

-------------

There's more to this world than your own brain, dude.

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Re: MMugh
[info]rayzak2000
2006-08-04 01:14 am UTC (link)
You speak as if I've never played an MMO. I have, and mild excitement you get from grinding levels in no way compairs to a night dancing with my wife at the local blues bar..
http://www.billyslounge.com/

Surfing Warren Dunes...
http://www.sandboard.com/photos/index.htm

Go to college, party a few times, get a girlfriend, experience the life of an adult, then we'll talk.

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Re: MMugh
[info]joemag
2006-08-04 01:34 am UTC (link)
I'd argue that you've never played a good MMO, everyone that you have referenced is a horrid dredge, a black hole of fun. You also seem to believe that MMOs are all about the roleplay, I have never pretended to be any of my in game characters, I'm still Joe I play with people I know in real life and we have blast.
You're letting the gold farming industry (one which I abhor) skew your attitudes on online gaming.

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Re: MMugh
[info]rayzak2000
2006-08-04 02:15 am UTC (link)
Just like church huh? If only I do what you do, I'd see the light? I've played all major MMO's in one capacity or another, and outside of A Tale from the Desert, it's all the same. Grind, grind, grind, level up, and grind while you alienate yourself from friends and family. A Tale from the Desert offered unique game play, but still required far too much time for what little reward you received. That bores the hell out of me.

I would rather sit down to a real Paper/Pencil RPG than fester in my own juices for 12 hours a day while clicking on things.

And gold farming? What does that have to do with me not likening turn based RPG's?

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Re: MMugh
[info]shatterjack
2006-08-05 04:21 am UTC (link)
"I've played all major MMO's in one capacity or another, and outside of A Tale from the Desert, it's all the same. Grind, grind, grind, level up, and grind while you alienate yourself from friends and family.

...

I would rather sit down to a real Paper/Pencil RPG than fester in my own juices for 12 hours a day while clicking on things.."


Most MMO players do not play this way, just as most D&D players don't commit suicide when Black Leaf The 8th-Level Cleric gets killed by a poison trap. Not even when the game in question happens to be their favorite activity and they prefer to do it over the "real" activities you gave as examples in your first post. There's nothing wrong with it, and it doesn't make them shut-ins who fear human contact. Playing MMO's is not mutually exclusive, or even at odds, with "get some life experiences rather than cut off the rest of the world".

"And gold farming? What does that have to do with me not likening turn based RPG's?"

He probably got it from your original post; it's easy to see how one might infer that the RMT phenomenon had some influence on your opinion of MMO's, especially since your "I'd rather use the money on XYZ" statement was in direct reference to money spent on in-game items.

Incidentally, practically all pen and paper RPG's are turn-based and very few MMO's are, so I'm not sure what you mean by that.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: MMugh
[info]barfo
2006-08-04 04:45 pm UTC (link)
iqpierce:
I do not see why you are under the impression that I failed to grasp his premise initially or need it explained to me.

Yes you competently offer an analogue to his argument, and thus my points apply equally to your analogy as his original points. Which are that its wholly fallacious to just propogate the common belief that because most people think that its better to spend ones entertainment getting out do do things that those who choose to stay in and play a game are somehow worse off. Bobby in your example is so convinced of the greater value of building a fort versus playing on a game without ever actually stating his reasons for this belief that he has prejudged your friends' game and thus ignores all of Johnny's arguments out of hand, even though some of his arguments are valid while others are definitely wrong and through discussion these could be elucidated. Which is a disservice to both of them as they would both be improved by rationally discussing the issue and they would probably find that they agree more than they disagree and that they each learned something.

The point is that as far as entertainment options go, i was raising the idea that its pretty hard for me to see a lot of real evidence for why going to a "live show" or on a "road trip" is somehow categorically better than playing an MMO, such that video game players should be singled out for so much ire and constantly exhorted to stop playing and go out. Its not like the original poster was even saying that the hypothetical MMO player (which is the implied subject of this discussion) should be doign somethign useful, like using his free time to work on a cure for cancer (see Monty Python sketch for "How To Do It") or to donate his time to volunteer for the community. He is merely saying that the MMO player shoudl stop playing his mindless MMO entertainment and replace that with other mindless entertainment without every trying to argue or self-examine his actual reasons (other than personal preference) why he assumes these other entertainments are any better, on which point i deign to challenge him, and you.

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Re: MMugh
[info]rayzak2000
2006-08-04 06:44 pm UTC (link)
From this quote of yours...

"...were more important than going down town every night to get wasted on ecstasy at raves or drunk off their ass at bars (what the people that i knew who went down town regularly were usually doing"

I get the impression that your experience with night life, as well as the other activities I mention, is limited. If this is true, how can you accurately quantify the pleasure to cost ratio of such experiences? However, you did say this...

"Or even better, take that money and buy another game, since that is likely to provide much more enjoyment per dollar (and often a much more carefully designed or complex accomplisment tree structure) than any of those other activities you mention."

If you have never ridden a sand board on the beach in the spring, how do you know it is better or worse experience than playing an MMORPG. I have played multiple MMO's, and have also ridden a sandboard. If an amateur pilot were to tell me that flying his ultra-light was a better experience than sandboarding, I would be intrigued, as I have never flown an ultra-light before. I would not, however, call his hobby irrelevant without experiencing it for myself.

What you are doing is trying to intimidate me with technical terms, while not presenting any actual evidence yourself. You haven't even listed what MMO's you play or have played in the past, or what hobbies/experiences you have had in your life outside of MMO's.

Apparently my own experience with MMORPG's is as irllevant to you as my other life experience. So, let me ask you, what are your personal experiences with "going to down town", "Seeing Live shows", "Sand Boarding", and "Road trips".

I don't want to hear about your perceptions of the above activities. I don't want to know what your friends did. I don't wan my grammar to be critiqued, or insults about my 'debate style'. I want answers, in plane english, to the following questions.

1. What is your experience with city night life, be it local or otherwise? - Tell me what night clubs, social clubs, bars, music halls, or fine restaurants you frequent. And by frequent, I mean visit on your own free will with an open mind.

2. Have you ever been to a live musical performance? - By this, I mean seen a band or performer play an intamate show in a small venue where you could, if you wanted to, talk with the performer before and/or after the show. Again, of your own free will, and unrelated to another event like a holiday celebration or parade.

3. If yes, have you ever fallowed a perfoamance group to several venues to experience said show with a different atmosphear.

4. What is your experience with traveling? - By this, I mean planning time to leave your current surroundings and visit a place with little, if any , similarities to your own. I don't mean driving 30 miles to the next town to visit an aunt as a child. I mean something as drastic as hicking sand dunes, camping in a large forest, visiting a large city other than your own, seeing the ocean, seeing the desert, leaving the country, or visiting a major theme park. Again, an experience of your own free will planned by you and you alone.

5. Explain how a videogame has "a much more carefully designed or complex accomplisment tree structure" than real life, specifically in the area of real life character development from cradle to grave.

6. If a videgame offers experiences that are on par with , or superior to real world experiences, then describe to me how a falafel wrap with turnips tastes, only using your online experience.

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Re: MMugh
[info]barfo
2006-08-05 01:05 am UTC (link)
As far as your list of questions:
1,2,3,4: For the most part these are beside the point, as I have made little or no denigrating comments about such activities (except the plainly labeled straw man from before) merely pointed out a lack of you actually explaining them in previous posts, thus my points thus far do not depend upon specific personal experiences being present or lacking. Rather, I argue the general "class" of those experiences (see below) in an open manner and subject to correction from other parties should they present arguments that refute my poitns. The crux of my point before is that at its essence, gaming can easily fit into the same class of entertainemnts (which are throwaway in nature as they leave the person with little tangible remains), except with the detail that it involves a game universe instead of the physical universe. Thus the physical versus game world does not seem to me to really modulate the abstract value (separate from individual preference for one activity over another) such that one could categorically expect one class of experience to always be better for everyone (not knowing in advance their personal preferences). Thus when you, initially, say that this guy should get out and experience life if he's unhappy with his current MMO, I feel that its fair to offer as an addenda that in addition he could just buy another better designed game.

5. First off I will slightly disavow my initial phrasing of this idea which may have implied that what i was thinking was that all video games would offer better designed accomplishment trees than all real-life experiences across the whole range of possible experiences. Upon further reflection, a more reasonable (and precise) restatement is that video games due to the nature of the beast tend to have more designed acomplishment trees than your typical physical world experience might have and in relation to classes of experience that many people may find compelling (evidence the fact that many people like video games). One quick caveat is that to different individuals (or one individual at different times) this observation could easily be construed to either a negative or a positive based upon individual predilection or the individual may categorically not care about the range of experiences that games tend to be able to offer. The reason for the basic difference between game versus physical world is obviously that by their nature a game world is wholly designed, while a physical world element is at best only partially designed. Note that im not saying that this means that these physical world entertainmens are without interactivity, in any case (phys or digital) the human interacts with the world and will attempt to have a fun time and likely will. Also in all cases the artist is getting paid more or less in the long run based upon how well they are pleasing their fans, however in a game, the entire universe is under the control of the designer, while a band may not have that degree of control over the venue for their show, and in the case of a tourist spot even less things are under their control (eq weather). Thus this greater level of design that is inherent to the digital world leads me to state that there is reason to believe that a digital world will have a head start at providing an interactive experience that follows a well paced accomplishment structure (which is only an advantage for those people who would want that as opposed to a less designed accomplishment structure, both of which are reasonable potential perspectives).

6. The premise of your conditional is essentially irrelevant to the conclusion, which means that the inevitable response in the negative does not make the point that you think it does. My explanation was cut due to being over character limit.

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Re: MMugh
[info]zippydsmlee
2006-08-03 02:01 am UTC (link)
it only took me 3 moths of some palying to figure out FF11 is a sad grind whore than constaly annoys you with BS rules.

they have managed to nerter COH whitch was fun or the frist 20 or so elvels the frist year now its so ful of BS I cant stand it,COV soon to follow,GW is a handicaped unbalanced Diablo 2.

I hate caps and limits and perfer stat reqs for weapons and stuff rather than levels.

PSO and WOW are ok for the most part.
but still theres jsut a large FUN missing from soem or msot MMOs 0_o

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Re: MMugh
[info]rayzak2000
2006-08-03 04:20 am UTC (link)
PSO, while I never played it, seems like a fun game. My wife likes mindless action RPG's, and PSO looked like it would fit the bill. But my wife never has time to play games anymore these days.

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Re: MMugh
[info]zippydsmlee
2006-08-03 09:41 am UTC (link)
PSO is a DIablo clone ala 3rd person Phasnty Star style...thats the ebst way I can tell it,the aiming system is somewhat annoying so havieng a mage that has a gun and you need to keep on targets or close target or weak target that you know...need to be killed can be overly tricky,another thing I dislike about it is the evil shops they ahve shops yet these shps are so fining random theres lil point useing them half the time 0-o

its more "complex" than say GW but not by much,GW is kinda a poor diablo clone ala MMO wannbe 0-o
sure GW is cute but I miss the days when a low level charatcer can find a nasty high level weapon and then go about haveing..I dunno FUN......aggrrhhhhh....everythign in life is to impead my fun LOL

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Re: MMugh
[info]rayzak2000
2006-08-04 01:46 am UTC (link)
I actually built a computer for my wife just so we could play Diablo II together.

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Re: MMugh
[info]zippydsmlee
2006-08-04 04:51 pm UTC (link)
Cool ^^

PSO is also cheap at 8-9 a month it might be as much as ten now adays I am not sure I know you can still get it online PSO BB its a 800MB or so downlaod nothign to worry about if you got DSL,so a double account would be 20 alittle more than enwer ickyier MMOs *L* soemthign to think abotu if she gets a few weeks off and gets a gameing bug bite *L*,all in all is a nice lil game if you got a Xbox or Cube they have it on thier to altho the Xbox one you need a live account in order to paly the offline game 0-o
the Cube you dont need to even have online its jsut like any other offline game ^^
Powers/techs are found or bought you ahve to be a certain elvel to learn them but its not that diffrent from the daiblo series the only realy down side is quick aiming/changeing targets I was a mage with a petion to use pistols (ie run shoot run shoot)*L*

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U can do it to!
[info]zippydsmlee
2006-08-02 01:16 pm UTC (link)
Well make money,or at least get a job to make SOME money...altho you need soem brains,some skill and drive.....My engine is dead,my skills are worthless...and I never realy had a brain....*sigh*

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[info]xlorep_darkhelm
2006-08-02 04:19 pm UTC (link)
I personally like to play MMO's -- it is a cheap way to derive a lot of entertainment value for me, especially as I am not really capable of going out to night clubs and the like any more (physical limitations due to back disability I got when I was in the Army).

I find it frustrating when I hear about people selling gold for real-world money, simply because in the years I have either developed, or played online games, and had been in online virtual economies, and I have seen first-hand how those economies work, and the impact that gold-selling has to said economies.

See, MMO server economies are flawed -- because they are an extremely minor subset of what real-world economies contain. Money in an MMO is created out of thin air, and has very few ways to disappear back into thin air -- which is a necessary evil, due to how items are made (from thin air again), and bought & sold in those games. As a result, people begin to get a lot of said in-game money over time. As the amount of money increases in-game on a server, the prices of items being traded between players increases. Otherwise known as online-game inflation (frequently called "Mudflation" because of the connection to the M.U.D. [multi-user dungeon] games that MMO's all are derived from).

These economies are all doomed to become grossly inflated -- that just is how they work. That said, there is one sure-fire way guarenteed to accelerate that process. When real-world money is tied to the items and/or gold in-game, then people are able to start seeing it as a way to make a living, and do as the author of the book had done. People will do just about anything to get real-world money; that's been shown time and again, and evident everywhere. These people, if they find a way to make an income out of selling gold and/or items in-game, will push themselves further in order to be able to make more money from it. This includes (what Blizzard in particular loathes and tends to ban people for) using external software tools to accelerate and automate the item & gold gathering process (cheat programs). So... where the "normal" player might go around and gather items to sell on their own, gold-sellers tend to eventually gravitate towards methods that increase their real-world profit margins (simple human nature).

What is the impact on a server -- which has an economy where more in-game gold is constantly being created from thin air, and has little way to be taken out of the economy -- when people start pushing themselves to make even more in-game gold using tactics like third-party cheating software, or sweatshop tactics? The inflation accelerates, and the server economy becomes even more oversaturated with gold at a much faster rate. Now, to the average player, that means they need to make more gold in order to trade it for the same items they used before. For the new player, the server becomes more and more inaccessable, because it takes a much steeper amount of gold to be able to purchase anything from other players. That is the major impact I have seen that gold-selling has in an MMO. New players get more or less shafted (unless some generous existing players start handing out gold like candy), forcing a segregation of the new players even further apart from the existing players, and people who can't keep up with the amount of gold needed to participate in the economy, also quickly spiral out of the server economy.

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[info]zippydsmlee
2006-08-06 04:12 am UTC (link)
THis is why the DEvs should nip it in the pub and create a simple way for themto dole out money to thos willing to apy extra for it but not to the point where it screws over the server.

also needing a GM or mod to approve huge transfers might help to,besides jsut saying XXX is bad do you see any ways to fix it where some can buy game money wihtout screwing over a sever?

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Not to nitpick...
[info]getwellgamer
2006-08-02 05:02 pm UTC (link)
The title on the write-up and the one on the picture of the book don't match...

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Re: Not to nitpick...
[info]gamepolitics
2006-08-02 05:21 pm UTC (link)
yeah. The actual book that I have shows the title as we reported it. I assume Amazon received an earlier version from the publisher.

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Re: Not to nitpick...
[info]cecil475
2006-08-02 05:45 pm UTC (link)
I've just recently cancelled my subscription to WoW. I didn't play it much and found it a waste of money for as much time as I went into playing it. Maybe I am just too much of a GTA and console junkie.

- Warren Lewis

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Re: Not to nitpick...
[info]gamereviewgod
2006-08-03 01:51 am UTC (link)
Yeah, the review copy had the posted title as well.

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[info]scottjonsiegel
2006-08-03 01:07 pm UTC (link)
"Marital discord, apparently caused in part by his dedication to the MMO business, sends Dibbell cross-country."

Actually, Dibbell was quite insistent that his personal issues were in no way influenced by his gaming. He went into a little more detail on this matter at his Second Life-based book event, hosted by Wagner James Au, which is worth a look for anyone interested:
http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2006/07/the_second_life.html

The book is a great read, even for those not interested in RMT, like myself. Beyond the economics, it's a well-told tale of reality vs. unreality, not unlike Dibbell's previous title, "My Tiny Life."

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[info]gamepolitics
2006-08-04 12:50 am UTC (link)
in fairness to Matt, I inserted that phrase during edit. I've no knowledge of what Dibbell may have said after the fact, but I distinctly had the impression that the MMO project didn't help.

I'll have to go back and re-read those sections.

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