Game Politics ([info]gamepolitics) wrote,
@ 2006-06-18 10:55:00
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Entry tags:cliff stearns, congress, dan houser, ftc, hot coffee, paul eibeler

GP EDITORIAL: Congress Grilled the Wrong People

Capitol Hill is very much interested in video games these days.

Wednesday's hearing before the House Subcommittee on Commerce, Trade, and Consumer Protection was both lengthy and contentious. Subcommittee Chair Rep. Cliff Stearns (R-FL) and colleagues were not kind to game industry witnesses, especially ESRB President Patricia Vance.

GP does not quarrel with the ability of Congress to hold hearings on the video game issue.

We just think they grilled the wrong people.

With 99% of political attention in relation to video games directed at the Grand Theft Auto series in general and the Hot Coffee scandal in particular, Congress should have skipped intermediaries like Doug Lowenstein and Patricia Vance and posed their questions directly to the people who run Take-Two Interactive and Rockstar Games.

GamePolitics would very much like to see Take-Two CEO Paul Eibeler and Rockstar co-founder Dan Houser explain to Congress exactly how Hot Coffee happened.

The internal mechanics of how the scandal came about have never been detailed, save for in the most general terms. The Federal Trade Commission's incredibly sparse report of its nearly year-long investigation tells us nothing that wasn't already revealed by GamePolitics and other news outlets last summer.

For starters we'd like to know:

-who conceived the Hot Coffee idea?
-who created the animations?
-who eventually decided to nix it from the final version?
-why it wasn't removed from the disc entirely?
-did insiders realize the active and highly-skilled GTA mod community would find the sex animations?
-why did Rockstar and Take-Two lie about Hot Coffee when it was revealed?
-why did they try to blame the mess on their biggest fans, the GTA mod community?


The video game industry has suffered tremendously because of Hot Coffee. Much of the legislation discussed every day on GamePolitics would either not have been proposed, or would not have passed were it not for the enormous public and political mistrust generated by Hot Coffee.

In California, for example, Leland Yee's video game bill was, by his own admission, dead in the water in June of 2005. Hot Coffee burst onto the scene in July. By October, Yee's bill had been passed and signed into law. It now awaits a ruling from a federal judge on its constitutionality.

The game development community has also taken note of Hot Coffee's fallout. Noted game designer Warren Spector broke ranks last November, saying that Rockstar had put the entire industry at risk.

So it's time for some answers. The FTC investigation certainly didn't provide them. Congress has subpoena power. They should use it.

Paul Eibeler and Dan Houser should be called to Capitol Hill and compelled to explain Hot Coffee - to Congress, to the public and to their video game industry colleagues.

Want to talk about it? You can discuss this story via the "comments" feature (click below), or in the new GamePolitics Forums...




(Post a new comment)

Agreed
[info]grimm24
2006-06-18 04:02 pm UTC (link)
Of course I think we can all agree that congress should stop talking about games and get back to the important issues like energy and healthcare or whatnot.

But apparently the biggest threat to society today is not Iran, not terrorism, not drugs or the rampent display of sex, but videogames. Because we all know that the world stopped turning once Pong was invented right.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Agreed
[info]brendanthejedi
2006-06-18 04:43 pm UTC (link)
Sorry, but politicans on both sides of isle are too busy doing political posturing because November is far closer than it appears. At least it appears to be to them.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

CAUTION: HEADS WILL ROLL
[info]thevelociraptor
2006-06-18 04:41 pm UTC (link)
Capitol Hill probably won't give a slap on the wrist like the FTC did, most likely it will flame the hell out of Take-Two, considering the bollocking Lieberman [sic] and Captain Kangaroo gave to Mortal Kombat 2 and Night Trap.

(Reply to this)

What answer are you looking for?
[info]saifujinaro
2006-06-18 05:26 pm UTC (link)
It feels like your request is more about saying we should punish RockStar rather than a sincere desire for answers.

So, as a thought experiment, lets get some answers for you. Here are some hypothetical answers to your questions:

1) The Hot Coffee idea was conceived by a games programmer; standard policy on the project was for programmers to be allowed to experiment, so he put together a demo.

2) He asked an animator for the animations.

3) The producer nixed it; a good idea, but the sexual content is too high to ship with an M rating.

4) It wasn't removed from the disc entirely because the resource pipeline tools were not robust enough to identify all unused resources. An oversight that cost a few 100k of disc space on the cds; political ramifications aside, it wasn't worth the time to scour the resources looking for things like this.

5) Insiders did not realize the highly-skilled GTA mod community would find the sex animations; they had forgotten about the sex demo entirely.

6) Rockstar and Take-Two lied about Hot Coffee when it was revealed to minimize the damage it would do to the company. They didn't feel it was that big of a lie, because from a certain point of view, what they said was true.

7) They tried to blame the mess on their biggest fans, the GTA mod community, because well, it was the GTA's mod community's fault that it came to light, and it didn't do the GTA mod community any harm to place the blame on them.

So there are the hypothetical answers to your questions. You are now chairman of the congressional hearing. What do you do with the answers?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: What answer are you looking for?
[info]gamepolitics
2006-06-18 05:44 pm UTC (link)
Rockstar/T2 has certainly been punished by the cost of the recall and by the stock market.

But everyone else is called into question for what they have done. Let them go and answer for it.

What happens with the info? Who knows. I have no punishment agenda. I would like some truth.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: What answer are you looking for?
[info]phoenixzero
2006-06-18 06:38 pm UTC (link)
Actually they probably nixed it mainly because it sucked. Seriously, there was no fun to be had in that minigame. Aside from that, the whole thing was blown way out of proportion. By the sensational media who has seen its ratings hurt by the competition given by videogames and politicians (aka whores) doing their usual pandering and grandstanding for votes/attention.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: What answer are you looking for?
[info]jesdk
2006-06-18 09:54 pm UTC (link)
Indeed. It's not like the actual minigame itself had any usefulness, 'cept for a one-time laugh. It's really that pathetic.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]jargon_john
2006-06-18 05:44 pm UTC (link)
C'mon! Congress can't be that stupid!

-who conceived the Hot Coffee idea?
A company full of horny men...

-who created the animations?
Animators, duh!

-who eventually decided to nix it from the final version?
People who knew that the country would shit bricks over a poorly animated and godaweful sex game.

-why it wasn't removed from the disc entirely?
Oops? Shit happens.

-did insiders realize the active and highly-skilled GTA mod community would find the sex animations?
Obviously not if this shit happened.

-why did Rockstar and Take-Two lie about Hot Coffee when it was revealed?
What company doesn't lie when it did wrong and are in deep shit?

-why did they try to blame the mess on their biggest fans, the GTA mod community?
Scaptgoating. Politicians do it all the time!

...Really, it's not rocket science...

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]gamepolitics
2006-06-18 05:48 pm UTC (link)
you may be right.

If so, they should stand up and face their lies, and not leave Doug Lowenstein and Pat Vance and the rest of the industry holding the bag and having to front for them.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]jargon_john
2006-06-18 06:04 pm UTC (link)
In their eyes, the videogame industry is still probably a small one or two company industry, aimed at creating 2D Mario games for kiddies.

Cause we all know that if someone like Paramount or Warner Bros. would've done something like this, the MPAA wouldn't be the ones taking the shots because of it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]terminator44
2006-06-19 01:41 am UTC (link)
Cause we all know that if someone like Paramount or Warner Bros. would've done something like this, the MPAA wouldn't be the ones taking the shots because of it.

Hell, if that were the case, nobody would get flamed. There would be no congressional hearing. Why? Because nobody thinks movies are harmful anymore.

*Sigh* Again with the double standards.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]no_relation
2006-06-18 07:06 pm UTC (link)
I'm not disagreeing with you, some answers from Rockstar and Take Two would be lovely. However, I would say that picking on them specifically is outside the government's purview in general and the scope of the Congressional inquiry in particular. I don't think the gov'ment should get involved with specific companies like that; that's what groups like the ESA are for.

Again, I too would like answers to your questions, I just don't think a Congressional subpoena is the way to go about it. An interview here in GP comes to mind...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]terminator44
2006-06-19 01:43 am UTC (link)
Agreed. You'd think Congress would have better things to do instead of bitching about Hot Coffee. Seriously, we shouldn't even have to answer to these fuckwads. This is just the latest version of the culture war.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]nightwng2000
2006-06-18 07:19 pm UTC (link)
I think you pretty much answered why T2/Rockstar isn't there answering questions. Everyone else IS answering for them. Just get yourself an image of T2/Rockstar putting their feet up on their desks, leaning back and smiling while thinking "Ah, this is the good life. Everybody else is taking the brunt of the blow while we just get a lot of free advertising and a slap on the wrist." Doesn't matter if it's rational, that's how it feels.

What everyone else SHOULD be doing is standing around the desk, arms crossed with sour looks on their faces and telling T2/Rockstar "Get up off your fat arses and take some responsibility for yourselves. This was your screw up. Even if the questions are simple and obvious, YOU answer them. Maybe when you show you can be responsible for your own actions, then we'll start backing you up. Til then, YOU do the arse-kissing."

Sounds right to me anyway.

nightwng2000

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Well, you DO know somebody who wants to hoist them on their petards.
[info]startropics
2006-06-18 08:20 pm UTC (link)
Perhaps a little JT/GP coaction?

Nah, but it would be amusing.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Well, you DO know somebody who wants to hoist them on their petards.
[info]curiousthompson
2006-06-19 06:28 am UTC (link)
Damn encourage HIM.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]bloodsbane
2006-06-21 10:18 pm UTC (link)
"C'mon! Congress can't be that stupid!"

Yes.

Yes they can.

The problem with congress is that they are out of touch politicians. Talking is what they do for a living. And so we get people who do not play the games telling us what we can and can't play and what is and is not good for our development.

not to mention Jack Thompson, who has a vendetta against video games for some reason.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]areadenial
2006-06-21 10:19 pm UTC (link)
"...Really, it's not rocket science..."
Yet most of your answers seem kind of half assed. A comment earlier answered them in a much more realistic manner.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]gamepolitics
2006-06-22 12:37 am UTC (link)
You miss the point, which is to have T2 & R* face the music publicly and not hide behind the ESA and ESRB.

And yes, we can all guess and speculate at the answers. I'd like to know...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]areadenial
2006-06-22 01:01 am UTC (link)
That is not what I was talking about. I think this issue could be handled much much better if the companies in question were to actual come out and say something. This whole issue would gain a lot more movement in a positive direction if the companies could actually speak on the issue. Instead the communities seem to be more active in the debate. I agree that there is way too much hiding behind the ESA statistics and the ESRB.

My comment was directed at the person who assembled a list of answers to the questions you asked.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]gamepolitics
2006-06-22 01:19 am UTC (link)
I think this issue could be handled much much better if the companies in question were to actual come out and say something. This whole issue would gain a lot more movement in a positive direction if the companies could actually speak on the issue.

Yes, we agree on that. But don't expect them to do so any time soon...

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]areadenial
2006-06-22 01:30 am UTC (link)
actually* damn spelling errors

Also, I am not sure if gamepolitics is just one person, or a few.. but if it is a single person, I was with a friend at E3 in line for the Nintendo Wii demonstration. I talked to someone who said they wrote for the site Game Politics. That person, my friend, a black man and myself all had an extensive discussion about gaming, but mainly a large chunk of it was dedicated to all the different ways we could make "Wii" sound wrong. Was that you?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]gamepolitics
2006-06-22 02:05 am UTC (link)
No that was Andrew Eisen, one of our longtime correspondents. Good guy...

(Reply to this) (Parent)

i still wonder
[info]theshroomguy
2006-06-18 10:02 pm UTC (link)
Hello new member first post: It is still beyond me why politions make such a fuss about a totaly unerotic hidden sex scene in gta. Oh wait there all stuck up old farts lol.

(Reply to this)

Re: What answer are you looking for?
[info]eusisnaphtali
2006-06-18 10:27 pm UTC (link)
I have to agree. If nothing else, at least they're the ones with the strongest ties to this damn mess.

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Pfft, Congress should grill themselves
[info]illspirit
2006-06-18 11:04 pm UTC (link)
Why should T2 or R* have to answer to anyone? Or, perhaps more importantly, why should Congress waste any more time or money on such a non-issue?! It was rated M for strong sexual content already. Why isn't anybody demanding Congress, Yee, et al answer why they flipped out over PG-13 sex cartoons in an M rated game, while they ignore games like GoW, Playboy, Singles, BMX XXX, etc.. which are full of sexual content?

And why does Yee dodge the question when you ask him why he helped generate over a million downloads of a mod which only had around a thousand downloads before he "alerted the parents?" For wanting to "protect" kids from it, he sure as hell did a good job of advertising it to them.

Besides, what good is it asking Paul Eibeler or Dan Houser? They don't write code or make triangles, so one would be just as likely to get an explanation from a janitor. The whole thing was surely just as surprising and confusing to them. Especially Eibler. Good luck "compelling" Dan to testify though. AFAIK, he's still a British citizen. And methinks the British Embassy would roll their eyes clear out of their heads if the US govt. demanded access to one of their citizens over some low-poly boobies in a game made for adults. :P

At any rate, I can and have answered most of those questions here, PatrickW told the FTC everything that we know, and the guys at R* cooperated with them fully as well. As such, there is no mystery. All that's left for Congress to do is beat the long dead and decomposing carcass of this horse until the mid-term elections.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Pfft, Congress should grill themselves
[info]terminator44
2006-06-19 01:47 am UTC (link)


Why isn't anybody demanding Congress, Yee, et al answer why they flipped out over PG-13 sex cartoons in an M rated game, while they ignore games like GoW, Playboy, Singles, BMX XXX, etc.. which are full of sexual content?

Because GoW is the only one of those games that had any violence, and it took place in ancient times. GTA, on the other hand, takes place in a modern city where you are able to kill cops and hookers. The franchise was already extremly contoversial, Hot Coffee was just the spark that lit the powder keg.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]finaleve
2006-06-18 11:11 pm UTC (link)
The meeting was pointless, because it attacked something that will probably never happen again. I mean, in all seriousness, any company wouldn't like that in the first place because, quite frankly, it would kill them.

Honestly, you are right. Congress did the bashing with the wrong peeps for the most part. Instead, the attacked the people who are involved today because they are the ones that are most involving nowadays. Rockstar/take-two backed away from the scene and went back to work.

In the end...thats it. IT's over. The whole concept of moving should take play, like 5 months ago.

(Reply to this)

The Problem
[info]holdenrulz
2006-06-19 12:19 am UTC (link)
I think the main problem is that the content was created by the subsidiary Rockstar North (Formally DMA Design)which is situated in the U.K which has different social standards, so who should the American Congress grill?
Citizens of another country or the company who publishes their work.
As far as I know the American Congress can't demand citizens of other countries explain themselves to the American Congress and grilling the Head Honchos at Rockstar Games\Take-Two is like demanding answers from the head of Coca Cola about why a single worker was sacked from the Indian bottle plant, They can't be expected to know everything everybody does. Personally I believe it's just political grandstanding on a frankly minor issue, and the American Congress should be more concerned with the huge rise in anti-americanism lately in First, Second and Third world countries along with war, poverty, etc.
Besides what could they say that hasn't been said already "Yeah we left Hot Coffee on the disc because removing it would have made it ship late and annoyed all our retailers, fans, PR people, accountants, advertising companies, etc"
Besides the Eula states this:
"(iv) your Modifications must not contain any libelous, defamatory or other illegal material, material that is scandalous or invades the rights of privacy or publicity of any third party, or contain any trademarks, copyright-protected work or other property of third parties; (v)" and

"(vi) your Modifications shall not be supported by the OWNER. The prohibitions and restrictions in this Section apply to anyone in possession of the Software or any of your Modifications. YOU ARE NOT PERMITTED TO REVERSE ENGINEER, DECOMPILE OR DISASSEMBLE THE SOFTWARE IN ANY WAY." and finally

"Jurisdiction. ENGLISH LAWS GOVERN THIS AGREEMENT, REGARDLESS OF EACH COUNTRY’S CHOICE OF LAW PRINCIPLES, WITH A FORUM AND VENUE OF LONDON, ENGLAND."
Therefore the Modification is in violation of the Eula required to install the game and the ERSB and other companies should just say "get lost" they only have problems because they won't stand up and say anybody who supports this without a VALID concern that isn't disclaimed upon installing the game is an idiot.
Sorry if it sounds like a rant but I'm sick of this non-issue

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: The Problem
[info]rich_d7
2006-06-19 10:24 am UTC (link)
In agreement here, but also like to add that I find it very strange how sex and nudity of any kind is looked upon so negatively in the US, compared to violence. Janet Jackson getting a nip out proves that!

In the UK (where we are pretty closed off when it comes to such things - only just allowed hardcore porn in the last 6 years) Hot Coffee hasn't raised any concern, but the violence has (both in games and films/television). In fact, as many know we have daily newspapers with topless women in for anyone to see - no age restrictions there - and they're real people, so no wonder no-one bated an eyelid over some animated humping.

I do believe that 1) if this had been openly in the game (which had warnings about sexual conduct) then it wouldn't have caused such a fuss, and 2) if Hot Coffee had been a hidden act of violence instead of sex, then would it have created such a storm?

I always pictured the US as a more open minded country, especially when it comes to sex (considering it's billion dollar porn industry), but it seems that there's a lot of people who are really afraid of little Jimmy seeing some booty!

Rich

On a side note, we do still have our stores over here stocking all the dvd films together - Bambi with Terminator etc - yet hiding the "adult" dvd's away in a corner, giving the message, violence good, sex bad! No wonder we have 12 year olds with kids!!!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]crimson_mage
2006-06-19 01:24 am UTC (link)
Well. I guess all my disapproval for Vance and the ESRB blinded me to the biggest problem with this whole hearing. Excellent point, GP.

P.S. Who's pictured?

(Reply to this)

id rather they have gamers come to the table and share
[info]evirustheslaye
2006-06-19 01:33 am UTC (link)
these congress people are so misinformed on what games are and just what the difference between required paths and optional paths are, interms of actions taken in a game. they should have hearings where they ask gamers questions about the games they play to get a better understanding of what is needed and what is not interms of censorship and parental control, im sure every gamer would agree that if their child was not mature enough to seperate what they do in a game with what they do in reality they shouldnt play the game. but its extremly hard to pin maturaty to a specific age, there are stupid 21 yearolds who drink themselfs to near poisining levels and smart 10 year olds who know when they stumble across a hand gun, its probably not a vary good idea to pick it up and wave it around.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: id rather they have gamers come to the table and share
[info]terminator44
2006-06-19 03:05 pm UTC (link)
Excellent idea. Alas, the politicians don't want to listen to our side of the story. The Congress hearing certainly proved that. Therefore, the plan would never fly with them. They think all gamers are stupid anyway.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]muhammed
2006-06-19 03:04 am UTC (link)
Well, the fact of the matter is that the ESRB and the ESA have been doing damage control ever since last July, and we all saw what constituted for damage control from T2/Rockstar back then. Suffice to say they only made it worse. While it would be nice to see them dealing with some of this as well, it might not be a bad idea that they don't. Their potential to make things worse by saying something dumb is pretty high.

(Reply to this)


[info]gatz111085
2006-06-19 04:18 pm UTC (link)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd6QSwuyUkg&search=Jack%20THompson%20Ace%20Attorney

Despite the fact that G4 hardly shows anything funny, I thought this was pretty funny. It is also relevant to the debate.

(Reply to this)

Next-Gen Biz ran GP's editorial
[info]jabrwock
2006-06-19 06:16 pm UTC (link)
http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3252&Itemid=2

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Next-Gen Biz ran GP's editorial
[info]gamepolitics
2006-06-19 07:05 pm UTC (link)
huh...

I saw it also got some play on Joystiq

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]blackmanta
2006-06-19 06:52 pm UTC (link)
What I want to know is, when are the game designers themselves going to testify on behalf of the industry? Something tells me they'd do a better job of explaining and defending their art more than some intermediary would, especially considering how they short-shrifted Lowenstein.

During the PMRC hearings, they had the likes of Dee Snider, Frank Zappa and John Denver testifying before Congress. Where are the big name game designers? Let's get Warren Spector, Tim Schaefer and John Romero up there and speak. I think they'd be able to better convey the appeal of games and accentuate the positive.

(Reply to this)


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