Game Politics ([info]gamepolitics) wrote,
@ 2006-04-16 09:51:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend  Next Entry
Entry tags:clock tower 3, jeff johnson, jim ward, kansas, legislation, minnesota, republicans, sam brownback, u.s. senate, wichita eagle

Sunday Editorial Roundup

Making the rounds of today's editorials, GP finds two items certain to be of interest to readers.

First stop is the Wichita Eagle, where Opinion Editor Phillip Brownlee gives kudos to Kansas' Republican Senator Sam Brownback for encouraging state legislatures to pass video game restrictions. Brownlee also questions why a bill proposed by Democratic State Rep. Jim Ward hasn't progressed. Brownlee concludes:

"In the end, of course, it's up to parents to act like parents and not let their children play inappropriate video games. And, no, playing a violent video game doesn't mean that a teen will go on a shooting rampage. But it is reasonable and responsible to expect that games rated for adults only are sold only to adults."

Next, Minnesota State Rep. Jeff Johnson, (R - pictured at left), chairman of the House Civil Law Committee, pens an op-ed for the Minneapolis-St. Paul StarTribune in support of video game legislation which he has proposed.

Johnson, who testified before Sen. Brownback's U.S. Senate subcommittee hearing on video games last month, is the sponsor of HF1298, a bill which would assess $25 fines against under-17's who attempt to buy M-rated games.

Johnson writes, "My intent is not to make criminals out of kids or to make money for the state $25 at a time. But I hope the new law will catch the attention of at least a few of the painfully oblivious parents in our state who are paying absolutely no attention to some of the garbage their little kids are playing on their video game machines."

Johnson enumerates several games that concern him, including usual suspects GTA, Postal and Manhunt. Oddly enough, he includes Clock Tower 3, a so-so 2003 survival-horror game in his list. GP doubts the game gets played much by anyone these days, much less the under-17 crowd, but Johnson must have come across it somewhere. He also mentioned Clock Tower 3 in his testimony before the Brownback subcommittee.




(47 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]no_relation
2006-04-16 03:02 pm UTC (link)
Are we sure he's not under the impression that Clock Tower is a Charles Whitman simulator?

(Reply to this)


[info]angry_man
2006-04-16 03:09 pm UTC (link)
Bad laws are merely a trap for money.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]zippydsmlee
2006-04-17 03:35 am UTC (link)
dont you mean bad laws sux up money?

(Reply to this) (Parent)

The Garbage Comment
[info]bustermanzero
2006-04-16 03:45 pm UTC (link)
Tisk tisk. Are you a comedian, Mr. Johnson? No, you are not. Thus, way to tick off the lobbyists.

(Reply to this)

At least he's honest about his target
[info]jabrwock
2006-04-16 04:01 pm UTC (link)
But I hope the new law will catch the attention of at least a few of the painfully oblivious parents in our state who are paying absolutely no attention

At least he's honest about his reasoning behind the bill. Unfortunatly, this bill really won't catch their attention, because they're not the ones being fined...

(Reply to this)


[info]startropics
2006-04-16 04:02 pm UTC (link)
...a bill which would assess $25 fines against under-17's who attempt to buy M-rated games.

So when little eight year old Johnny curiously places a copy of Rumble Roses on the EB store counter, they automatically have to fine the kid $25?

Kids don't really keep up with politics, usually. Is it really fair to legislate fines against them when a very good majority of them won't even know about it?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]marbledog
2006-04-16 04:24 pm UTC (link)
As an eight-year-old can not own property, the legal responsibility for paying the fine would fall to the parent.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]bigman_k
2006-04-16 04:42 pm UTC (link)
This just pisses me off. Fining kids for trying to buy the game is worse then trying to fine the retailers and is probably more unconstitutional (as it specifically targets the minors themselves rather then just there ability to access it). In the end though this anti-gaming trash bill is unconstitutional. Minors have Free Speech rights unless the material falls under the legal definition of "obscene for minors" and an M rating can't determine that constitutionally. Not only that but violence can't be found to be obscene for either minors or adults. Obscenity covers only sexual conduct and nothing else.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]kharne83
2006-04-16 05:09 pm UTC (link)
I see two outcomes:

1) the fine will be widely ignored.

2) the fine is enforced and pocketed by the stores in question, who then report that no fines have ever been processed.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]gamepolitics
2006-04-16 05:44 pm UTC (link)
The stores have no governmental authority and thus no ability to assess or collect the fines.

This is really law at its silliest, since no one will enforce it. Does Rep. Johnson honestly think the police in MN have nothing better to do that check game retailers for kids trying to buy a copy of San Andreas?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]bigman_k
2006-04-16 05:56 pm UTC (link)
Exactly, cops aren't going to go out of their way to stop this, Esspecially when the fine is $25. Of course it'll never be enforced anyways as the law would be struck down the minute it got into the Courts.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]kharne83
2006-04-16 08:31 pm UTC (link)
I've said that a couple times already: Ok, let's say one of thse bills, by some hiccup in reality get's passed. Now how do you enforce it? Because right now enforcement seems to be based on the pure dumb luck model and that's not a good thing.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]nightwng2000
2006-04-16 10:15 pm UTC (link)
It's more like a case of really bed foresight. Actually, it's more like no foresight at all.

I mean, how do you actually enforce a fine on a child? Let's go higher than an eight year old (why such a child is running around with no supervision to being with is questionable, though not improbable).

Let's say the twerp is 15 years old.
Do you grab the kid by the collar and say "OH BOY, you're in trouble now! Pay the fine or else!"
Do you, the retailer, hold them in the same manner as you would a shoplifter til the cops come? Do the cops issue a ticket, like a apeeding ticket?
The fifteen year old, without ID, gives fake info to the cop. "Prove it's fake." Does the law allow holding the kid til a parent shows up, either at the store or at the police dept.?
Fifteen year old kid, having given real or fake info, tosses ticket. Fake info, he's free and clear.
If real info, whether the ticket is tossed or not, who's responsible for paying? If the kid doesn't pay, what happens? Jail time for the kid or for the parent?

I could go on and on (anyone wanna bet I can't? :) )
The composer of this bill was clearly a Dumbarse. C'mon, you were thinking it even if you didn't say it. You know you were. :)

nightwng2000

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Couple of things to point out...
[info]zento06
2006-04-16 04:34 pm UTC (link)
First, Johnson noted 4 games (GTA, Clock Tower 3, Manhunt, and Postal 2) and said that these were all popular and readily available at any store or rental place with video games. He leaves out the fact that Postal 2 is only available on PC, so it can't be rented anywhere. And I don't think the last three games are readily available anywhere. The only place that had Clock Tower 3 that I checked via website is Gamestop/EB, and that stupid "store availability" option is never 100% accurate.

He also neglects to mention that in Manhunt, you don't play a mass-murderer who kills random people, but a convict who's forced to kill other convicts in order to survive. He also said that you score "bonus points" for killing hookers and taking their cash after sleeping with them. I don't recall any of the GTA games having any sort of "points" system, unless you count money or reputation.

However, I did like the idea of charging the kid extra to buy the M-rated game instead of the store. It would really make a kid think twice about buying one and, if the stores enforced better then the policy they already have, it would actually require parents to be there with their kid to buy the game.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

That's Worse....
[info]bigman_k
2006-04-16 04:48 pm UTC (link)
..."However, I did like the idea of charging the kid extra to buy the M-rated game instead of the store. It would really make a kid think twice about buying one and, if the stores enforced better then the policy they already have, it would actually require parents to be there with their kid to buy the game."...

But that's even more unconstitutional then fining the retailers as it specifically targets the minors themselves by punishing them for trying to access Free Speech (which they have a right to) rather then just trying to hinder their ability to purchase it (which is still bad and unconstitutional to). For example: Can you imagine fining someone for just trying to read a banned book rather then just stopping retailers from selling it to that person. Both are censorship and both suck but one is worse then the other.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: That's Worse....
[info]zento06
2006-04-16 11:21 pm UTC (link)
Touche salesman, but all I said was that I liked the idea. I never said that it would hold up in court. I just thought it was an interesting twist on the whole "who's to blame" game. Trust me, after working at an AMC theater and having to deal with 10-year old kids trying to get into The Texas Chainsaw Massacre and whatnot, it's very easy to start wondering what younger kids these days actually want to do. I really start to wonder whether they would rather lie to their parents in order to get what they want, like a ride to the movie theater or a game, instead of explaining what they want and asking their parents for it. It's not like a kid wants to buy a game or see a movie they've never heard about, but if they think their parents wouldn't let them do whatever they wanted to do, they'll probably try to find alternate ways to achieve it. This law would give the kids a little extra surprise at the checkout.

Of course, I don't think a minor could be held accountable to pay the fine or if a retailer could carry out the law instead of the police, so there's no way this would pass the courts, nor do I think either should happen. But it would help the parent be more informed about what their kids are playing, which I think is something that we all agree is important.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]artheleron
2006-04-16 05:28 pm UTC (link)
I'm impressed. Two opinions from people supporting video game legislature, and rather than the fear-mongering that Hillary Clinton and one currently legal-battle-embroiled lawyer use, both pretty much admit it's just so that inept parents will wake up and smell the Mario. I can support that.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bigman_k
2006-04-16 05:52 pm UTC (link)
The stupid thing is if the parents are the problem here then why not fine the parents $25 for buying their kids an M rated video games. The parents can still buy them for the kids but it'll cost them an extra $25. I doubt many parents will be willing to pay that extra amount. Really if the parents are the problem in this regard why fine children for just trying to buy the games and not the parents as they're the ones who are actually buying them for their kids. It's really stupid and it's a really stupid law.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

The op-eds miss the big picture
[info]beardoggx
2006-04-16 05:49 pm UTC (link)
If Brownlee wants to know why Kansas' bill hasn't progressed, he should have done some research instead of shedding crocodile tears:

-The Federal Courts struck down every attempt thus far, inculding two in the last several months, with a third upcoming.

As far as Jeff Johnson goes, his bill would still make kids criminals, regardless of intent, and those games are not garbage, they're art in every sense of the word.

Johnson proves himself to be an idiot.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: The op-eds miss the big picture
[info]pandagamer
2006-04-16 05:52 pm UTC (link)
"those games are not garbage, they're art in every sense of the word."

Except Clock Tower 3. That game was a real turd. =P

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: The op-eds miss the big picture
[info]hilaryduffgta
2006-04-16 11:27 pm UTC (link)
Hey now watching that girl get her head slammed into a wall with a giant hammer in clock tower 3 is kinda cool


then again i am morbid so hey

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: The op-eds miss the big picture
[info]bigman_k
2006-04-16 05:53 pm UTC (link)
Totally agree.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: The op-eds miss the big picture
[info]dustin1986
2006-04-16 06:24 pm UTC (link)
Some of these people say that video games are just a useless waste of time, but they're not. Sometimes when you play a game, it really is it's own reward. Like reading a good book. What's the difference between defeating Ganondorf in zelda and defeating Sauron in the Lord of the Rings?

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Violent Games > Violent Movies
[info]dustin1986
2006-04-16 06:28 pm UTC (link)
Here's the problem with video game legislation: They only go after games. There is no penalty for a minor buying a violent movie. If a kid walks up to the counter with Scarface the movie, and the new scarface video game, guess which one is going back on the shelf. If the restrictions were more universal, maybe it wouldn't be completely insane.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

The problem with your reasoning is.
[info]funnydale
2006-04-16 06:50 pm UTC (link)
It's based on total logic, and this is America we are talking about. Where incompetence is rewarded, and intelligent thought and reasoning is frowned upon and punished.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: The problem with your reasoning is.
[info]braindead1
2006-04-16 06:58 pm UTC (link)
"Where incompetence is rewarded, and intelligent thought and reasoning is frowned upon and punished"

Nah, thats just the poloticeans.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: The problem with your reasoning is.
[info]cyn1c42
2006-04-16 07:38 pm UTC (link)
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."- Douglas Adams

He must have seen this future

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: The problem with your reasoning is.
[info]braindead1
2006-04-16 07:54 pm UTC (link)
Everyone loves Douglas Adams. But that is really just a rewording of "The people who want power are those who are least suited to it"

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: The problem with your reasoning is.
[info]froggersrevenge
2006-04-17 06:48 pm UTC (link)
Not really. Adams' quote also harps on the disparity of wealth and influence that allows elite, rich candidates to trounce poorer runners who might be infinitely more talented, smarter, more motivated and ethical. It also hints at the sore fact that campaigning and actual politics require entirely different skills.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Politicians AND
[info]funnydale
2006-04-16 07:45 pm UTC (link)
News Media
Soccer Moms
Jack Thompson
David Grossman
Religious people
Atheist people
Internet Trolls
Corporate CEO's
Right Wing activist groups
Left Wing activist groups
Xbox fanboys
Playstation fanboys
Nintendo fanboys
PC fanboys
Macintosh fanboys
Uwe Boll fanboys
Final Fantasy fanboys
Dragon Quest fanboys
Kingdom Hearts fanboys
Any video game system fanboy.
"blah blah blah blah diddly dunm diddly do", if I go on I will go insane.



(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Politicians AND
[info]braindead1
2006-04-16 07:53 pm UTC (link)
So that leave...janitors, teachers and firemen.

Enough for my society.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Politicians AND
[info]thefremen
2006-04-17 12:17 am UTC (link)
Not to mention, desert dwelling Fremen.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Politicians AND
[info]braindead1
2006-04-17 01:48 am UTC (link)
Ah yes...the Fremen.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Violent Games > Violent Movies
[info]bigman_k
2006-04-16 06:55 pm UTC (link)
Same with violent music CD's, violent books, violent newspaper articles, violent magazines, old WW 2 veterans talking about the violent actions during WW 2 to minors, the Holy Bible and Holy Quran and religious articles containg violent conflict, ect. You can't just target one form of media or Free Speech you have to target them all. In the end it would be fricken' rediculous.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Violent Games > Violent Movies
[info]kincyr
2006-04-16 09:18 pm UTC (link)
my thoughts exactly. 'cept if I said it, it wouldn't sound as good.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Psh
[info]x_vader_x
2006-04-16 06:42 pm UTC (link)
Someone tried to fine me 25 bucks for playing A M rated game at a gamestop or something i would just ignore them and see what would happen next...

(Reply to this)

Let's have a look see...
[info]catch_33
2006-04-16 10:20 pm UTC (link)
"In the end, of course, it's up to parents to act like parents and not let their children play inappropriate video games. And, no, playing a violent video game doesn't mean that a teen will go on a shooting rampage."

You sir, deserve a cookie.

"My intent is not to make criminals out of kids or to make money for the state $25 at a time.

Some how I doubt that.

"But I hope the new law will catch the attention of at least a few of the painfully oblivious parents in our state who are paying absolutely no attention to some of the garbage their little kids are playing on their video game machines."

The only thing that's going to catch the attention of those parents is a roundhouse kick in the face by the almighty Chuck Norris, followed by a lesson on child-rearing. You sir, do NOT deserve a cookie.

(Reply to this)

Off-topic. Jack Thompson CAW for SDvR2K6
[info]awel_cruiz
2006-04-17 12:04 am UTC (link)
Mentioned this in the last thread, but thought I'd repost here. Go to my blog for a CAW formula for our favorite litigator.

(Reply to this)

Completely OT but..
[info]durlock
2006-04-17 02:21 am UTC (link)
http://www.igda.org/sex/

How long has that place been around?

I just saw a link through VG Cats about the KH Themed Vibe just now...

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Completely OT but..
[info]nightwng2000
2006-04-17 03:03 am UTC (link)
The "Burn the books" article there on that site is pretty interesting to. I especially like the point that there are other "obscene" books in the library's system that haven't been pulled.

nightwng2000

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]finaleve
2006-04-17 02:41 am UTC (link)
Now I can say that both these guys have a little more knowledge than many of the previous politicians, but thats not enough.

"law will catch the attention of at least a few of the painfully oblivious parents in our state who are paying absolutely no attention to some of the garbage their little kids are playing on their video game machines."

I found most of that statement to be pretty funny, the parents are oblivious part. Quite frankly, its true. We've stressed that fact already.
The last of it makes this guy seem a little aggresive, but I guess it needs to be used sometimes.

(Reply to this)

It is resolved we fine the aprents 25 grand per offence
[info]zippydsmlee
2006-04-17 03:39 am UTC (link)
It is resolved we fine the aprents 25 grand per offence.................




realy WTF are the smokeing?!?!?! god everloveing damnit these fools need a reailty check and a cut in pay mabye then they will start working again...theres no need to cut into thier preks but they need a swift kick where it counts......I am so tiredof seeing public offcails and Pastors of large TV churchs owening 100X what the commen man has.....

(Reply to this)

Jeff Johnson
[info]lpmiller
2006-04-17 01:40 pm UTC (link)
As a Minnesotan who lives in plymouth, this was my response to Jeff Johnson.

"This is in response to Representative Jeff Johnson’s opinion piece on video games in the Sunday edition of the StarTribune.

Mr. Johnson, I have the pleasure of having you represent my fine city in the state legislature. I am proud, sir, to see you work so hard on what is obviously the single greatest issue of the day: video games. Other, lesser members of state government might waste time worrying about say, the war in Iraq or something stupid like conserving our wetlands. They might look around the city of Plymouth and wonder why all this wonderful land is being turned into yet more town homes and shopping malls. They might make the foolish decision to talk about taxes, or the strapped education system.

But you sir, you have come up with a method to keep the children safe from videogames. I applaud you. Mr. Johnson, you alone have decided that if a child buys an ‘M’ rated game, he or she will be fined 25 bucks. The retailer of course, the person we trust to card for cigarettes, alcohol, and R rated movies – well, we leave him alone. I think we should extend this idea to drug enforcement, and start charging the junkies and just leave those dealers alone. They are just trying to make a buck anyway.

Sure, some might argue that as a society, we leave it to parents to decide if kids can watch an R or PG-13 rated movie. I mean, you can buy movies at gas stations these days, so why not? We don’t really do anything to enforce the movie ratings, we just trust in parents not to be blithering idiots. Yeah, so a kid might end up watching Basic Instinct or Hostel. Hostel is just about torture, we can trust parents with movies about torture. Not video games though.

Video games are different, because it’s scary technology, and we don’t understand that. Sure, we have the internet. Sure, I can easily type in the name of a game into Google, find out it’s M rated and more importantly, why. I can even, if I’m really really brave, face up to my 9 year old daughter and say, “No. You will not play Grand Theft Auto.” I’ll try to say it with a stern voice and not run and hide behind the bed, fearful of her wraith. But I could cave. I’m weak. So thankfully, we have a good Republican like you who has given up on the whole ‘small government’ idea of your party and just decided to parent for me. If you would help me remember to occasionally feed my kids, I’m sure they’d be thankful. In return, I’ll be sure to remember your pandering, ignorant hyperbole when next I vote.

I would suggest that anyone truly, honestly interested in this issue go to Gamepolitics.com, and support their efforts in bringing truth to an issue buried in campaign pledges and outright dishonesty."

LPMiller
Editor In Chief, News and Reviews
http://www.gotapex.com/news.php

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Jeff Johnson
[info]kincyr
2006-04-17 01:44 pm UTC (link)
I hearby award you with the internet.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Jeff Johnson
[info]bigman_k
2006-04-17 02:11 pm UTC (link)
I loved it, great response.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Garbage?
[info]mr_putter
2006-04-17 01:52 pm UTC (link)
This coming from a guy who wants to take money from little kids because their parents can't monitor what they are playing?
Shame on you, sir. Go and play Mario Kart: Double Dash!! and open up your cold heart. I don't think it would hurt if you played a bit of TSFP; run over the freaks known as Hans in a Zeep driven by a zombie monkey called Brains. Have some fun, sir!
( Note: No offense to anyone called Hans in real life. The character known as Hans in TSFP is pretty freaky. )

(Reply to this)


[info]mandrakegeek
2006-04-17 04:25 pm UTC (link)
"In the end, of course, it's up to parents to act like parents and not let their children play inappropriate video games. And, no, playing a violent video game doesn't mean that a teen will go on a shooting rampage. But it is reasonable and responsible to expect that games rated for adults only are sold only to adults."


I think this is the best thing out of Brownlee's piece. And I happened to see a parent who actually was paying attnetion to what her kids were wanting this past weekend.
Our local GameStop is next to a Subway... after I had gone and picked up my latest game, the wife and I stopped at Subway for some lunch before heading home to catch a hockey game. In Subway was a mother of three... one of her kids was wanting a game and his mother was asking all the right questions of him and then ended the conversation that she wanted to look at the game to make sure it was appropriate for him. I so wanted to go up to her and say thank you for not playing into the hype... but in the end, I just wanted my food ^_~

(Reply to this)


(47 comments) - (Post a new comment)

Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…