Game Politics ([info]gamepolitics) wrote,
@ 2006-02-06 10:05:00
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Entry tags:blame, lang, new bedford, robida, violence

In Wake of Rampage, New Bedford Mayor Wants Violent Games Rounded Up

New Bedford Mayor Scott Lang has a message posted on his website in response to the deadly Jason Robida rampage that began last week in a gay bar in New Bedford and ended on Saturday with a police shootout in Arkansas that left a police officer, a West Virginia woman and Robida himself dead. The mayor's statement reads in part:

"This was a hate crime... the actions of a single deranged individual act as a wake up call to our community and once again the nation... This cycle of violence must stop. The guns have to come off the streets. The violent video games have to be taken out of our homes."

We can appreciate that Mayor Lang feels the need to make a response. However, we've yet to see any reports linking Robida to violent games, although there is ample evidence he was into racial hatred, neo-Nazism, and apparently hatred of gays as well. He was a disturbed kid who was no stranger to the local police.

There's also a bit of a disconnect between "a single deranged individual" and removing violent games from everyone's home. Unless we're misreading Lang's release, he is not blaming games for Robida's rampage. Rather he appears to be making some type of generalized statement regarding what he calls "this cycle of violence."

In any case, we're sure to hear more about Robida's motivations, since the mainstream media is all over this high-profile case. If there turns out to be evidence that this twisted, homicidal maniac was also into violent games, we'll report that. If he wasn't, we'll report that too.

In the meantime, we've seen Robida's MySpace web site. In fact, that's where the creepy picture of Robida that accompanies this article was found. While there are a lot of violent, racist and Nazi references on Robida's MySpace, not one word about games can be found.

UPDATE: Our old pal Jack Thompson posted a comment to this article pointing out that today's Boston Herald makes mention that Robida was a gamer. No mention of what he played, however. Nor does a passing mention of video games in Saturday's Boston Globe say what titles Robida may have favored. Nintendogs? GTA San Andreas? Madden? Hopefully, more facts will emerge. As always, check GamePolitics for the truth.




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(510 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]xenosphobatic
2006-02-06 05:26 am UTC (link)
Hay guis. I smashed my thumb today. I blame violent video games.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]synabetic
2006-02-06 05:30 am UTC (link)
I hear that many serial killers, child molesters and mass murderers breathe oxygen as well.
Perhaps the world will be a safer place for everyone without oxygen...

(actually, it probably would be... what? :P)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]chenry, 2006-02-06 12:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ianc14, 2006-02-06 12:50 pm UTC
Good Job
[info]wedgetalon
2006-02-06 05:29 am UTC (link)
Good job on finally finding the single website that remotely links that wacko's hate crimes to video games. With how Jacko was preaching in the other thread, you'd think it would've been more obvious. Anyway, excellent journalism sleuthing it out!

-Wedge

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Good Job
[info]gamepolitics
2006-02-06 05:34 am UTC (link)
Not really, but thx. I simply saw on the news crawl here that Kotaku had it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Good Job - [info]wedgetalon, 2006-02-06 05:37 am UTC
Re: Good Job - [info]gamepolitics, 2006-02-06 12:35 pm UTC
Sad
[info]ex_bluewolf7896
2006-02-06 05:33 am UTC (link)
not saying Myspace made him do it but if they had any true admins or respect they wouldn't allow crap like that on the users profile. Don't have the facts but its a shame his pals didn't stop him from doing this since he went into the bar alone.

As for the mayor he has his own agenda and this just helps push it. Instead of illegal gun control which he cant control we use Video Games and Movies and TV and Music.

This just in Tetris is to blame for people color coordinating and matching pillows with walls!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Sad
[info]gamepolitics
2006-02-06 05:36 am UTC (link)
I wouldn't be too hard on the mayor. His statement was all over the place. I just think he didn't know what to say, so threw in every thing but the kitchen sink.

If Robida was a gamer, we'll hear about it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Sad - [info]suigin_kou, 2006-02-06 11:14 am UTC

[info]antitype
2006-02-06 05:35 am UTC (link)
Fucking Juggalos.

OK, that's not fair of me. I dislike Juggalos and their "lifestyle" (consisting of awful music, clown makeup, and Faygo), but I'm sure they're not all lunatic racists, homophobes, and murderers. They don't deserve my disdain. Not even ICP or any of those fools can be called scapegoats, here. I mean, at least not for anything this piece of shit did.

You catch my drift.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]sephirothgal
2006-02-06 05:43 am UTC (link)
That's the first tihng I noticed too, lollllll

I actually know a few Juggalos irl, and they're, for the most part, damn good people. Mind you, they've also grown out of that phase in recent years... For the most part.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]jakethejuggalo, 2006-02-06 05:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]traiklin, 2006-02-06 01:01 pm UTC
What is Faygo? - [info]timed95, 2006-02-06 05:56 am UTC
Re: What is Faygo? - [info]pope_guilty, 2006-02-06 06:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]semperar, 2006-02-06 08:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mrbrightcoco, 2006-02-06 04:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]antitype, 2006-02-06 05:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mrbrightcoco, 2006-02-06 05:58 pm UTC

[info]megalanzero
2006-02-06 05:35 am UTC (link)
Ant-Man fans rejoice, Scott Lang is alive and well.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]mcfly0612
2006-02-07 09:11 am UTC (link)
Ant-Man is good and all, but I want HawkEye back.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]neoookami
2006-02-06 05:37 am UTC (link)
How quaint. An assault in a gay bar and do we have a statement against homophobia, nope! But violent video games, yes. That makes sense!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Good point!!
[info]gamepolitics
2006-02-06 05:40 am UTC (link)
...hadn't thought of that.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Good point!! - [info]nintendite, 2006-02-06 05:49 am UTC
Re: Good point!! - [info]kajex, 2006-02-06 08:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]uglyface2, 2006-02-06 10:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]neoookami, 2006-02-06 05:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]uglyface2, 2006-02-06 09:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]neoookami, 2006-02-06 09:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nightwng2000, 2006-02-06 12:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]neoookami, 2006-02-06 05:34 pm UTC

[info]kilika_stryfe
2006-02-06 05:39 am UTC (link)
This kind of reminds me of the video game ban that they had in Greece a few years back. Is that still in effect?


And to think, I might have lived there, being 50% Greek...

(Reply to this)

Flavor of the week.
[info]nintendite
2006-02-06 05:44 am UTC (link)
The guns have to come off the streets.

Damn right. The sooner the better. It is FAR too easy for anyone to buy an gun in the United States.

The violent video games have to be taken out of our homes.

Yup, you are a mayor, I'm sure there was a "vote Lang" tied after that quote that was left out. Videogames are the flavor of the week.
50 years ago you would have said "the violent televisions have to be taken out of our homes". 20 years ago you would have said "the violent music disks have to be taken out of our homes".

Great, now nobody can commit a crime without it being tied to violent videogames. I'm going to be really happy when the activists finally calm down about this (all evidence points to that being very soon) but then odds are I'll be pissed about whatever they jump onto next.

"In other news a shark off the coast of California killed a surfer. All media sources point to the shark loving violent videogames. No, we have no proof of this; in fact we don't even know that he has the thumbs needed to use a controller. But damn it, he killed! He must have had game influence!"

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Flavor of the week.
[info]howdoyouplead
2006-02-06 07:27 am UTC (link)
Oh, I think banning guns will hardly solve anything. The bad guys will still get them somehow. They break laws anyways, what's to stop them from breaking one more to get a gun? Guns have a perfectly appropriate place in a responible society, and shouldn't be done away with because they happen to be used in crimes which are not the fault of the gun being easily obtainable.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Flavor of the week. - [info]acroamatis, 2006-02-06 06:37 pm UTC
Re: Flavor of the week. - [info]timbo1138, 2006-02-06 07:28 am UTC
Re: Flavor of the week. - [info]timbo1138, 2006-02-06 07:29 am UTC
Re: Flavor of the week. - [info]sqlrob, 2006-02-06 12:45 pm UTC
Re: Flavor of the week. - [info]aniki21, 2006-02-06 02:06 pm UTC
Sad...
[info]ericseiler
2006-02-06 05:58 am UTC (link)
...but is this how Jack views gamers? Is that why, without any real evidence, he has associated Robida with violent video games? Honestly, I don't know which is sadder - the perception of gaming and gamers by people like Jack and Mayor Lang, the thought that there are people naive enough to accept that as an explanation for such horrific violence, or that the real reasons for these depraved acts are being ignored by those with political agendas.

-Eric

(Reply to this) (Thread)

How Jack views gamers
[info]jaimas
2006-02-06 05:16 pm UTC (link)
He views us all, regardless of background, age, apparent literacy level, or education, as frothing, violent sociopaths who are so susceptible to messages from outside sources that we should be kept in isolation tanks until we're the age of 40 or so.

I swear, with how retarded Thompson's statements make humankind in general sound, I'm amazed he hasn't been sued into the dirt already.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

I dunno, really...
[info]samsoneffect
2006-02-06 06:04 am UTC (link)
This one seems like the violent video game bit was just thrown in there along with the kitchen sink, microwave oven, and your favourite kitchen appliance. I wonder if Jack had anything to do with that, or if that was genuine, or if he just let that one out.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: I dunno, really...
[info]vaminion
2006-02-06 08:03 am UTC (link)
Considering that it hasn't even been mentioned by, well, ANYONE until after Jack made his post here, I'd be willing to bet that Jack may well have called the mayor and said "Video games did this".

But then, didn't he claim video games had something to do with the bat beatings in Florida? I haven't heard anything about a video game link in the news coverage about that, either.

-P

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]t3dy
2006-02-06 06:12 am UTC (link)
the comments on the myspace are sure a walk on the wild side.

(Reply to this)


[info]abno
2006-02-06 06:17 am UTC (link)
Oy....

Well, that's lovely...

Maybe the mayor will not be mayor next election cycle....

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]tough_obstacle
2006-02-06 07:05 am UTC (link)
Dude, it's Mass., it's one of the most corrupt commonwealths out there. In Boston, there's been so much pocket lining and nepotism in that city, it's ridiculous.

I doubt anything will change.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

A little something.
[info]pyrocy
2006-02-06 06:21 am UTC (link)
I think it's the best time that I post this. Took me long enough to make it.

Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us

It's a mock/parody "anti-game" propaganda poster. No, I do not support videogame censorship and scapegoating. ;-)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: A little something.
[info]semperar
2006-02-06 07:03 am UTC (link)
Congratulations, you win the Internets. We hope to see you compete next year in the 2007 Internets as well!

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: A little something. - [info]jdmdsp911, 2006-02-06 08:23 am UTC
Re: A little something. - [info]semperar, 2006-02-06 08:45 am UTC
Re: A little something. - [info]jdmdsp911, 2006-02-06 07:09 pm UTC
Re: A little something. - [info]semperar, 2006-02-06 10:04 pm UTC
Re: A little something. - [info]chenry, 2006-02-06 12:31 pm UTC

[info]fango
2006-02-06 06:32 am UTC (link)
I have sent this email to the address listed at the top of the message
______________

Hello, my name is Jamie Dow and while I may have no connection to your city and the recent tragic events there, I want to comment on the wholly irresponsible way in which mayor Lang has responded to the incident. In his statement, "Mayor Lang's Statement Regarding the Events on February 4, 2006," Lang states that "the violent video games must be taken out of our homes." As far as I can tell, this statement has absolutely no connection to any of the matters at hand, and shows a reckless disregard for the truth. If Lang has some sort of special information linking video games to the crime, he should release it - otherwise, this statement exists as a smokescreen that is only serving to point fingers at whatever popular scapegoat happens to be in the news.

As an avid player of violent video games, I have never felt the urge to attack someone in the face with a hatchet, and neither have my large number of friends with whom I play such violent video games. I have spent a considerable amount of time playing Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, Halo, Counterstrike, Call of Duty, Postal, Diablo, and many, many others, and yet I have never used a weapon to attack another human. If you are proposing some sort of link between video game violence and real violence, I and the hundreds of other friends of mine who play the same games I do stand as counterexamples to your claim.

In Lang's statement, he also mentioned churches and synagogues. However, in the Bible, there are many mentions of violence against the whole spectrum of human beings - regardless of a person's race, gender, age, color or sexual orientation, there is probably a passage somewhere in the Bible that describes a person committing an act of violence against them. Does this mean we should remove the Bible from our homes? I suspect that Lang would think not. However, the connection between this crime and the Bible is at least as strong as as the connection between it and violent video games.

If Mayor Lang is hoping to prohibit people's free speech and right to entertain themselves in a non-threatening manner, he should say so without resorting to ridiculous attacks on completely unrelated things. This was a hate crime, and nothing more. It was not motivated by video games, it was not motivated by movies, it was not motivated by music, it was not motivated by any popular force that older people do not understand and therefore want to limit. And it was not, despite what you might have assumed from the previous paragraph, motivated by the Bible - even taking into account the considerable amount of gay-bashing that happens in religious circles. It was motivated by the hatred of a deranged human being, and violent video games can certainly not be blamed for it. As a rational citizen of these United States and in order that Mayor Lang might maintain a shred of integrity throughout this incident in the face of national scrutiny, I demand that he issue an official retraction for his ill-informed statements.

-Jamie Dow
Newport Beach, California

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]shogun_of_truth
2006-02-06 07:56 am UTC (link)
"However, the connection between this crime and the Bible is at least as strong as as the connection between it and violent video games."



I just wanted to point out that Jake Robida was an admitted Atheist, so this point is kind of invalid.
From his My Space:

Good job on the rest of the E-mail though.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]yzzerdd, 2006-02-06 07:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kajex, 2006-02-06 08:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]illspirit, 2006-02-06 10:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fango, 2006-02-07 12:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dachande18, 2006-02-06 02:40 pm UTC

[info]morlock
2006-02-06 06:36 am UTC (link)
people like that give juggalos a bad name...

i mean, its hard to do, but still. i still listen to ICP - i think some of their music is funny/silly/and sometimes actually skilled. i don't actually believe that people should axe others and stuff like that... if you do think that way, then you have more problems then i can even think of.

(Reply to this)


[info]finaleve
2006-02-06 07:00 am UTC (link)
This "maniac" reminded me of something in a movie. This movie was was called American History X. Maybe this mayor should see this movie and maybe get an understanding of this person instead of his quick decision on pointing the finger at video games.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]tough_obstacle
2006-02-06 07:06 am UTC (link)
That movie was brutal.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]finaleve, 2006-02-06 07:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tough_obstacle, 2006-02-06 08:00 pm UTC

[info]udx
2006-02-06 07:46 am UTC (link)
You can take our guns. You can take our games, but the violence won't go away.

Criminals will find other means of weapons to get what they want. Racial hatrid will NOT remove the violence. In fact, it might just make it worse.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Countdown to Thompson
[info]shogun_of_truth
2006-02-06 08:15 am UTC (link)
Agreed. People have been killing each other since the dawn of man, and it not going to stop anytime soon. Banning stuff does no good, you have to ban people themselves to stop violence. So unless you want a worldwide mass-suicide, nobody’s ever going to put an end to the killing.

But, with that said, there is steps that can be taken to reduce it, and guess what? None of them involving banning video games.

The most important thing of all is how parents raise their kids. If you beat your kid with a bat then he is much more likely to do that to other people as well, not because he may have played Grand Theft Auto.

The problem in American resides in the awful decline in parenting skills, it’s like every crack addict in the world has five kids nowadays.

Raise you kid’s right, and teach them to respect life and other peoples feelings. And believe it or not, they won’t go around putting axes through people’s heads. It doesn’t matter how much GTA they play, they won’t do it because they know better. Jack needs start asking himself why kids these days don’t know better, and stop making a big deal out of games.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Countdown to Thompson - [info]togabitoion, 2006-02-06 02:21 pm UTC
Countdown to Thompson
[info]yzzerdd
2006-02-06 07:56 am UTC (link)
When do you guys think Thompson is going to make a reply in this thread? I say in the next 10 hours.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Countdown to Thompson
[info]rum_monkey
2006-02-07 06:24 am UTC (link)
Sigh, please stop bringing him up when he hasn't made a comment. If we want the troll to go away, we need to stop invoking his name all the time.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Lang sounds incompetent, but then again, thats hardly a suprise
[info]yukimurasanada
2006-02-06 08:14 am UTC (link)
Reading the report, it strikes me that Lang was unaware of the actuall cause of it, but is trying to "jump" the bandwagon as it were. If the gaming industry lets this slide, then I will have to do the unthinkable. I will have to also ask Doug L. to step down as head of the ESA and find someone with some balls to take his place.

This crime, like Columbine, Like paducah, and Like so many others that happen every day, are in no way caused by video games. The man was a hateful, anti semetic neo nazi. I think thats about all the info you need right there as to what caused this crime.

I doubt the ESA would care about one person's opinon, but I have my right to say it. If the ESA will not stand up for itself and the game industry, then damn it, lets get someone in there who will.

Just my thoughts, but when an imbecile like Lang can be allowed to try and link games to violent crime without any evidance to back it up, then enough is enough, someone has to step up and put him in his place, and if the ESA's current leadership is unwilling, then I say it's time to replace it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Lang sounds incompetent, but then again, thats hardly a suprise
[info]kajex
2006-02-06 08:29 am UTC (link)
As much as I may not want to, I'm inclined to agree- the ESA does need a new person at the helm to counter blows such as this. I'm not saying that Lowenstein isn't a person causing all of this, but he's not doing anything to fight back against it. I keep thinking that only a few people in the industry actually take it seriously- the problem is, every other politician and angry irresponsible parent has only one other voice to listen to, and that voice belongs to the lawyer we know, love and despise.

I'd like to think that if there were one person with an equally loud voice and with the confidence to speak speak to the public, let them know the truth... basically someone who is Jack Thompson, except courteous, honest, open-minded, and not afraid to take the time to respond to people (rather than avoid every question), then the industry would prevail almost indefinitely. As of right now, though, there's only us- those who contact people to let them know the truth when we can.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Lang sounds incompetent, but then again, thats hardly a suprise - [info]semperar, 2006-02-06 08:49 am UTC
Re: Lang sounds incompetent, but then again, thats hardly a suprise - [info]kajex, 2006-02-06 09:26 am UTC
Re: Lang sounds incompetent, but then again, thats hardly a suprise - [info]nightwng2000, 2006-02-06 12:31 pm UTC

[info]jerico6
2006-02-06 08:29 am UTC (link)
In Wake of Rampage, New Bedford Mayor Wants Violent Games Rounded Up


Does he want it or does he need it?



New Bedford Mayor Scott Lang has a message posted on his website in response to the deadly Jason Robida rampage that began last week in a gay bar in New Bedford and ended on Saturday with a police shootout in Arkansas that left a police officer, a West Virginia woman and Robida himself dead. The mayor's statement reads in part:

"This was a hate crime... the actions of a single deranged individual act as a wake up call to our community and once again the nation... This cycle of violence must stop. The guns have to come off the streets. The violent video games have to be taken out of our homes."



Of course this was a hate crime. The guy was a crazy whacko! Don't bring video games into this issue. They had nothing to with it.


We can appreciate that Mayor Lang feels the need to make a response. However, we've yet to see any specifics linking Robida to games, although there is ample evidence he was into racial hatred, neo-Nazism, and apparently hatred of gays as well.

See! WHACKO!

There's also a bit of a disconnect between "a single deranged individual" and removing violent games from everyone's home.


Okay, lets remove Super Mario Brothers away from the home! That would really stop violence!



Unless we're misreading Lang's release, he is not blaming games for Robida's rampage. Rather he appears to be making some type of generalized statement regarding what he calls "this cycle of violence."


The Cycle of violence will never end, wether video games existed or not!



In any case, we're sure to hear more about Robida's motivations, since the mainstream media is all over this high-profile case.


Not to sound immature, but the mainstream media can kiss my ass!


If there turns out to be evidence that this twisted, homicidal maniac was also a gamer, we'll report that. If he wasn't, we'll report that too.



Wether he was a gamer or not should not be even a point. This guy was just a plain out whacko, plain and simple. Just like Jack Thompson. The only difference is that Jack Thompson didn't go out and kill people with blindless hate.


In the meantime, we've seen Robida's MySpace web site. While there are a lot of violent, racist and Nazi references there, not one word about games can be found.


Violent, racist and Nazi references is right! This guy needed PSYCHOLOGICAL HELP! unfortunately, its too late.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]semperar
2006-02-06 08:50 am UTC (link)
..."blindless?"

(Reply to this) (Parent)

...
[info]warpstarmstr122
2006-02-06 08:50 am UTC (link)
*reads headline*
*briefly scans article*

You gotta be kidding me...
Way to pounce on the first thing that pops in your mind to tag as a scapegoat, Mr. Mayor.

Jackass.

(Reply to this)

I'll give Jack Thompson a cookie...
[info]jerico6
2006-02-06 09:24 am UTC (link)
if he responds to me personally.

*me laughing*

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: I'll give Jack Thompson a cookie...
[info]ianc14
2006-02-06 11:53 am UTC (link)
Even if he did, he wouldnt respond to points rasied.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: I'll give Jack Thompson a cookie... - [info]evilfish28, 2006-02-08 07:05 am UTC

[info]slyfoxx
2006-02-06 10:36 am UTC (link)
You know... if politicians discovered that a killer played preschooler games that starred Elmo, they would probably try to have those games banned as well.

There seem to be some really ignorant and stupid people in power these days.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]slyfoxx
2006-02-06 10:40 am UTC (link)
Come to think of it, I'd LIKE for it to be discovered that this guy played kiddie games, just to show politicians how stupid they sound when they blame games without any real, hard evidence.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]markusdragon
2006-02-06 10:57 am UTC (link)
So many drugs references, and they blame videogames ._.

What is this world coming to?

(Reply to this)


[info]desert_thunder
2006-02-06 11:11 am UTC (link)
You know, no matter how far violence in videogames ends up going, we're still above the the ancient Greeks and Romans. Think about it: Grand Theft Auto versus slaves being publically murdered for entertainment purposes... I think Take Two can pretty safely take the moral high ground in that argument.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]desert_thunder
2006-02-06 11:15 am UTC (link)
Yes, I know that comment was off-topic... It's just something that popped into my head.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]markusdragon, 2006-02-06 11:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]desert_thunder, 2006-02-06 11:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]markusdragon, 2006-02-06 11:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]desert_thunder, 2006-02-06 11:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]desert_thunder, 2006-02-06 11:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]desert_thunder, 2006-02-06 11:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]markusdragon, 2006-02-06 11:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]desert_thunder, 2006-02-06 11:46 am UTC
you know - [info]tollwutig, 2006-02-06 04:04 pm UTC
Re: you know - [info]jeremykpierce, 2006-02-06 05:18 pm UTC

(510 comments) - (Post a new comment)

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