Game Politics ([info]gamepolitics) wrote,
@ 2005-12-09 15:06:00
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Entry tags:allen, brathwaite, esrb, final fantasy, hot cpffee, igda, navgtr, sex, squaresoft

Hot Coffee in Final Fantasy VIII ??

Is there a Hot Coffee-like sex sequence in Squaresoft's T-rated Final Fantasy VIII?

Although a discussion thread has - ahem - probed the subject for several weeks on the Sex & Games forum of the International Game Developers Association website, it seems like all parties now agree that the scene in question is strictly decaf.

The controversy sprang up when Tom Allen, executive director of the National Academy of Video Game Testers and Reviewers (NAVGTR) thought he spotted a brief Lewinsky moment between FF8 characters Rinoa and Irvine about halfway through the game. You can see the video sequence here. The moment in question occurs at about the one-minute mark. A slo-mo version of the footage is also available.

The story was kicked around on the IGDA board for more than three weeks until it became clear that Rinoa was bent over laughing, not, well... just not.

So how does a tempest in a teacup suddenly surface over an RPG that was released in 1999?

Interesting story, that.

"When I played the game for the first time back in 1999, I noticed it then and thought it was a (Lewinsky)," Allen said. "I was covering games for a television show back then so it was normal for me to record footage... When (IGDA member) Brenda Brathwaite proposed that NAVGTR have some sort of adult games category, the discussions with the IGDA sex SIG folks got me thinking about that scene from Final Fantasy 8... So because of all this, I wanted to find the footage. The original 3/4" tape is gone but I knew I had transferred everything to VHS first. I looked through my catalogue archives and did not find it. One day I was watching television and my eyes just happened to fall upon a nearby shelf where I saw the words 'Final Fantasy 8' in large letters..."

The video footage is far more ambiguous than the full-on Hot Coffee sex animations, a fact which Allen readily acknowledges.

"Yes, it is ambiguous," he told GamePolitics. "For six years it never occurred to me that Rinoa is bending over from laughing so hard, as opposed to giving Irvine a party in his pants. But I think this material still proposes an interesting question... it really brings into question the impossible task that companies of hundreds of artists and programmers face when they have to disclose anything remotely questionable to the ESRB."

"If the political climate is such that these hundreds of employees will have to start documenting every time they want to add some sexual innuendo, there will never be creative freedom to develop something of a sexual nature for retail just because of the sheer amount of documentation it would require. Could you imagine PA's on a film shoot having to write everything down every time an actor improvises in a slightly sexual way from the last take, just to report it to the MPAA to keep the politicians off our backs? Is this a free country or not?"

"The game industry has trapped itself into a system that will be a long term liability, and the fact that GTA's content was slapped with a rating that is MORE age restrictive than NC-17, for content that would easily pass for R in the film world... to me foreshadows worse controversies that are less about the content and more about politics, which is why we have to start talking about this now. The ESRB now has the effect of the Hollywood blacklisters, and politicians need to understand that this system is a set of guidelines, not a food label from the FDA.
"

In the interest of full disclosure, GP must reveal that he is a delegate to NAVGTR.




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[info]djtyrant
2005-12-10 12:33 am UTC (link)
You have got to be kidding me.

~JimmY

(Reply to this) (Thread)

The footage is not being manipulated.
(Anonymous)
2005-12-10 03:06 am UTC (link)
Here is a link to the footage:
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=hot+coffee+in+final+fantasy+8

To clarify: It's game play when you walk Squall up to a character, but once you start talking with a character, you can't move around until the character finishes his line. Squall and Irvine talk in the bottom right of the screen, then Irvine finishes and goes over to the stairs. At that point the player has to walk Squall over to the stairs to talk more with Irvine. Rinoa (girl in white) follows me (Squall, in black) wherever I walk. You can see me jockeying into position (and her following and getting in the way) as I keep trying to talk to Irvine but nothing happens, so I try to talk to him from another angle until finally the dialogue continues at the stairs.

(Side note: The posters at Live Journal are saying that I took great care to line up Rinoa so that when she bends over it looks bad. Nope. I took great care to get Irvine to TALK! I try talking to him from three different angles. If anyone wants to try walking up to him to the correct spot the first time and see what Rinoa does, be my guest, but I'm sure the game is still going to put her on autopilot to the exact same spot.)

Once the dialogue continues at the stairs, the player has no control over anything on the screen during the time that Rinoa is doing her thing. In looking at it again, now I see a new detail.

Squall appears to grab Rinoa's ass, almost coaxing/pushing her into giving the blow job. If she is actually laughing, what is Squall doing with his hand then? You could argue he's trying to grab her/pull her away so they can leave. I don't know. It's very ambiguous. If she laughs elsewhere in the game and we see the same animation for her laughing, then I would have to say, even with Squall perhaps grabbing her ass, it's probably very unlikely that there's a sexual act here. I have 6 hours of B-roll for Final Fantasy 8, but I won't be scanning it for additional laugh animations any time soon:)

This is another rant, prior to the IGDA postings:

This footage from Final Fantasy 8 shows hot coffee in a Teen-rated video game before the days of Grand Theft Auto. After Squall says, "Oh, well," Rinoa immediately bends over and performs a sexual act on Irvine. Squall is in the way, but the sexual act is unmistakably clear, especially judging by Irvine's reaction.

Does the ESRB think women "giving" sex is appropriate for 13 year-olds, but MEN giving sex is just... oh, oh, oooooh... degrading to women! and therefore politically unacceptable? Is it a double standard against men?

I doubt it. They probably just didn't feel that Rinoa's action constituted an "AO," which supports the idea that politics drove the new "AO" GTA rating, NOT the content. The ESRB should reinstate GTA's "M" rating and recoup Rockstar's costs. We all know the MPAA wouldn't consider GTA's cartoon sex to be NC-17. (Like Donald Duck, CJ has sex with his clothes on*. And Rockstar's VIP's may not have known about some programmers' secret prank when they first denied the content.)

Beyond issues of disclosure, the larger issue is why the ESRB is seemingly determined to become the Democrats' political deponent over simple SEX!

*Actually, I have no proof that Donald Duck has even had sex. Huey, Dewey, and Louie are his nephews, not his children with Daisy. But if Donald Duck were to have sex, I'm sure it would be fully clothed.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: The footage is not being manipulated. - (Anonymous), 2005-12-10 03:26 am UTC
Re: The footage is not being manipulated. - [info]the_new_l, 2005-12-10 04:15 am UTC

[info]carmine
2005-12-10 12:34 am UTC (link)
Is it just me, or ever since Hot Coffee, everyone's minds has suddenly become very, very dirty in regards to video games?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]imahori
2005-12-10 12:38 am UTC (link)
Just you.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]joyeuxnoel, 2005-12-10 01:14 am UTC
FF8 is a national treasure. - (Anonymous), 2005-12-10 03:22 am UTC
Re: FF8 is a national treasure. - [info]joyeuxnoel, 2005-12-10 03:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nightwng2000, 2005-12-10 02:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kiapurity, 2005-12-10 02:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rickgriffin, 2005-12-10 05:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nightwng2000, 2005-12-10 03:42 pm UTC

[info]kiapurity
2005-12-10 12:38 am UTC (link)
I don't remember anything like that in FF8 and I played that game like, millions of times. o_o

Definitely pretty sure people are quick to react... (The only thing dirty in FF8 was that Irvine left a porn magazine in front of Squall. Squall wasn't really thrilled about it.)

(Reply to this)


[info]xiiiwulf
2005-12-10 12:39 am UTC (link)
I don't see where this guy is pointing to. I just don't see anything off about that footage.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]imahori
2005-12-10 12:40 am UTC (link)
0:56 of the footage.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]xiiiwulf, 2005-12-10 12:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]imahori, 2005-12-10 12:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]xiiiwulf, 2005-12-10 01:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]imahori, 2005-12-10 01:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]xiiiwulf, 2005-12-10 01:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]demon_jd, 2005-12-10 03:46 am UTC

[info]sausageofpower
2005-12-10 12:39 am UTC (link)
Oh God, what bullshit. Yeah, if you try purposefully (as shown in the video) to angle Rinoa right next to Irvine, she bends over...laughing. If you tried hard enough, you might angle her in front of Squall, so it looks like she's grinding into his groin.

Come on, give me a fucking break.

-Corey

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Agreed. It's silly
[info]baldynomad
2005-12-10 04:04 am UTC (link)
Yup, Rinoa's laughing, and the position was deliberate to get you to think that she's servicing the fireman. How many times have I played Tekken or any other fighting game, and, fooling around, make it look like someone is getting hit in the balls, or even doing them from behind? Take 2 characters with a 'follow' script in the program, and some really funny things can happen.

I don't even want to go into what I could do with in Metal Gear Solid, with Snake, after I beat up a guard and drag his body around.

No hot coffee here. But it does show how silly it can get when an idiot looks at a cloud in the sky and thinks "Hey. That looks like a big penis. Someone did that on purpose."

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Agreed. It's silly - (Anonymous), 2005-12-11 05:53 am UTC
Re: Agreed. It's silly - (Anonymous), 2005-12-11 11:38 pm UTC

(Deleted post)
Re: This is bullshit.
[info]xiiiwulf
2005-12-10 12:45 am UTC (link)
Give this person a COOKIE! RIGHT NOW!

You rock.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

FF8 is not bad, even if there is a sexual act. - (Anonymous), 2005-12-10 03:14 am UTC
Funny
[info]jbourrie
2005-12-10 12:40 am UTC (link)
That's gotta be a joke, or a guy who originally saw it as a joke and thought it might get him his 15 minutes.

Super Mario 64, in one of the snow levels, stand still and move the camera to a view looking from behind and to the side of mario, then wait a minute or so. He'll start masturbating and moaning. Or maybe he's warming his hands. One of the two.

See, people, just a joke, something that looks dirty but is completely innocent. It wouldn't have even looked as bad if he had talked to Irvine when NOT standing right in the way of what was going on. And I think this guy knew that all along. 15 minutes.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(Deleted post)
Re: Also... - [info]jbourrie, 2005-12-10 12:57 am UTC
Re: Also... - [info]seifd, 2005-12-10 01:37 am UTC
Re: Also... - (Anonymous), 2005-12-10 01:38 am UTC
*eye roll*
[info]cowboybeboper42
2005-12-10 12:42 am UTC (link)
This is just so stupid. Especially since there is obviously nothing wrong and that the "incident" was caused by this one player moved the characters around enough for it to happen.

This is what 15 year olds come up to laugh about at lunchtime.

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2005-12-10 12:43 am UTC (link)
wow...that's unbelievable. I think that is just absurdly grasping at any sort of way to sink the video game industry further. I had to watch it 5 or so times before I understood what they were talking about.

Jeez, where do they come up with this stuff? Truly unbelievable.

(Reply to this)


[info]l33tn1ckz0r
2005-12-10 12:43 am UTC (link)
What about the implied sex that Fei and Elly had in Xenogears?

Oh, and don't forget the blatant nudity in the beginning and end of Xenogears...:p

I coulda sworn I saw one of Jenova's boobs, too, while replaying Final Fantasy 7. Dear me.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]kiapurity
2005-12-10 12:46 am UTC (link)
...ahahahhaa, yes, Xenogears certainly did have more nudity in the game than anything dirty in FF8.

(I recall something about there being some sort of controvesty(sp) surrounding the game... more about religious stuff than nudity and yet the game was released.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]xerne, 2005-12-10 05:49 am UTC

[info]_midnight_blue
2005-12-10 12:49 am UTC (link)
To those claims I say: ...Whatever. ((:P))

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]xiiiwulf
2005-12-10 01:05 am UTC (link)
Your icon is missing a period to be a real elipsis... x_x Sorry, I know! I'm being an ass. Sorry!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]l33tn1ckz0r, 2005-12-10 01:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]xiiiwulf, 2005-12-10 01:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]l33tn1ckz0r, 2005-12-10 01:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]xiiiwulf, 2005-12-10 02:49 am UTC
Riiiiight...
[info]catch_33
2005-12-10 12:50 am UTC (link)
This Allen guy's got problems if he sees anything dirty going on there.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Riiiiight...
[info]jbourrie
2005-12-10 12:54 am UTC (link)
I could see it. And I thought it was funny. However, I know, just as he did, that the footage was being taken out of context (he claims he didn't know, but theres no way he's that stupid). See my above post about Super Mario 64. This guy just took the joke too far and tried to make it sound serious in order to illustrate a point (and he actually has a good point).

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Riiiiight... - [info]catch_33, 2005-12-10 12:57 am UTC

[info]joyeuxnoel
2005-12-10 12:56 am UTC (link)
That is the dumbest thing ever. It's delibrately done by the player, and you can see it took a lot of effort to get Rinoa in the right spot too. Sheesh.

If you're gonna go after something, why not fire a few volleys to the half naked Gaurdian Forces in the game.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]catch_33
2005-12-10 12:57 am UTC (link)
That is the dumbest thing ever. It's delibrately done by the player, and you can see it took a lot of effort to get Rinoa in the right spot too. Sheesh.

Kind of like Tea-Bagging in Halo.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]joyeuxnoel, 2005-12-10 01:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]illspirit, 2005-12-10 01:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]catch_33, 2005-12-10 02:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]joyeuxnoel, 2005-12-10 02:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]illspirit, 2005-12-10 06:54 am UTC

[info]galin
2005-12-10 12:59 am UTC (link)
Now this... this is not news, in any way shape or form. I mean, maybe if it was a politician complaining about it... but seriously. Look at some of the Machima made with games today (like a certain World of Warcraft video). To bring up FFVII is just ridiculous.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]galin
2005-12-10 12:59 am UTC (link)
By FFVII I mean FFVIII.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

It came out so long ago
[info]quartermaine
2005-12-10 01:01 am UTC (link)
It came out so long ago, I doubt anyone even buys or plays this game anymore. What difference does it make that it allegedly has a sex scene?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: It came out so long ago
[info]xiiiwulf
2005-12-10 01:07 am UTC (link)
Hey! HEY! I play that game! A lot! \m/

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: It came out so long ago - [info]jdmdsp911, 2005-12-10 07:26 am UTC
Did you people even READ it?
[info]jbourrie
2005-12-10 01:04 am UTC (link)
I can't believe the reaction here. The guy isn't complaining, he's illustrating the problem with politicians trying to control game content.

READ!

"If the political climate is such that these hundreds of employees will have to start documenting every time they want to add some sexual innuendo, there will never be creative freedom to develop something of a sexual nature for retail just because of the sheer amount of documentation it would require. Could you imagine PA's on a film shoot having to write everything down every time an actor improvises in a slightly sexual way from the last take, just to report it to the MPAA to keep the politicians off our backs? Is this a free country or not?"

"The game industry has trapped itself into a system that will be a long term liability, and the fact that GTA's content was slapped with a rating that is MORE age restrictive than NC-17, for content that would easily pass for R in the film world... to me foreshadows worse controversies that are less about the content and more about politics, which is why we have to start talking about this now. The ESRB now has the effect of the Hollywood blacklisters, and politicians need to understand that this system is a set of guidelines, not a food label from the FDA."

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Did you people even READ it?
[info]joyeuxnoel
2005-12-10 01:11 am UTC (link)
Okay, there's a difference between wanting to add some "sexual innuendo" and controlling people's perceptions of it. Yes, it's overboard to document every little change, but comparing it to a movie is not the same. With the movie you get a finished product that's cut and dry. The fact you can see a woman topless in Disney's "The Rescuers" doesn't change no matter who you are.

With video games you can look at the code and the game play and see what is and what isn't there. However, that still leaves some wiggle room for the player to make their own decisions and interpret thing. Which is not wholly different from the people who thought the Minister in "The Little Mermaid" had an erection. There's nothing (forgive the pun) firm to support their claim and Disney has rebuffed it.

Here, Square could easily admit to the inappropriateness of the inclusion of the "naughty magazine" if they wanted to, but as for moving the characters so they "appear" to be doing "lewd" acts is just stretching. The naughty magazine is "adding sexual innuendo" but the action of Rinoa laughing, something which happens many times in the game, is not.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Did you people even READ it? - [info]imahori, 2005-12-10 01:19 am UTC
Re: Did you people even READ it? - [info]jdmdsp911, 2005-12-10 02:09 am UTC

[info]echoesandwaves
2005-12-10 01:07 am UTC (link)
Fucking hilarious!

(Reply to this)


[info]artheleron
2005-12-10 01:17 am UTC (link)
Welcome to the future. Where anything involving sex is HORRIBLY BADS AND OMG 1 BILLION TIMES WORSE THAN VIOLENCE! Personally, I look forward to when this comes back to bite humanity in the ass in 100 years, when no one knows how to copulate, and our species is rendered extinct due to meddling politicians who feel this vast need to "Look out for teh childrens!"

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dudelovenext
2005-12-10 02:26 am UTC (link)
Next they'll be claiming that Peach kissing Mario is way too hot. *shakes head*

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

On the... - [info]ace_ofspade, 2005-12-10 08:50 pm UTC
READ DAMN YOU READ!!!!
(Anonymous)
2005-12-10 02:10 am UTC (link)
Jesus! Before you go flaming your heads off why don't you acctually read the artical?! This guy is on our side of things and you just went out and called him an idiot! I mean even the headline suggested that there was no "hot coffee scene in the game. Crap like that stuff ^^^ should just be removed, when it was obviously written by people who have no frickin' clue what they are typing!

(Reply to this)

FF8 is a national treasure.
(Anonymous)
2005-12-10 03:23 am UTC (link)
I don't think anyone involved in the story, including myself, is saying that FF8 is bad. You're having that reaction because that's how most people felt about GTA when its hot coffee was found. Sex or no sex, it does not change my opinion of FF8 or the appropriateness of the Teen rating. Jack and Rose had sex in "Titanic." That was PG-13. I merely point out that, IF this exact footage was PROVEN to be a sexual act (i.e. if Square confirmed that it was a sexual act), then if the ESRB were to CONSISTENTLY apply the absurd logic it used in the GTA case, then they would be pulling Final Fantasy 8 off the shelves, too, and that isn't right. GTA already had a warning of "strong sexual content" and was rated 17 or older. That content could easily have been in any R rated Hollywood movie, especially since it was animated. A lot of people can accept GTA being pulled off the shelves like Hitler burning books. I am not one of those people. Many people would NOT accept Final Fantasy 8 being pulled off the shelves, so this is an entry point for those people to finally understand the larger issue the industry faces. There could be a day when a Final Fantasy 8, not a GTA, is pulled from a shelf because of something as stupid as this.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: FF8 is a national treasure.
(Anonymous)
2005-12-10 04:21 am UTC (link)
Hi. I am the third post of this exact same paragraph. Please remove me, Dennis, as posting the same thing fourteen million times is what's known as spam.

-The Post Above

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Unintentional Spam - (Anonymous), 2005-12-10 04:53 am UTC
Here is part 1 of the IGDA message board discussion:
(Anonymous)
2005-12-10 03:40 am UTC (link)
Posted by IanSchreiber on 12-08-2005 08:38 PM:

Okay, I looked at the footage about ten times. It's so blurry that it's hard to tell what's going on, which makes it really hard to evaluate.

Without talking to Square-Enix, here are my theories of what might possibly be going on here:

1) A rogue animator put in about a half-second or so of animation during development. It's unsurprising that in a 40-hour game, no one noticed until well after release.
2) Early on in the clip, note that Squall runs around while the other girl he's with follows in his tracks. When the 'incident' happens, it's after a bit of running around and positioning on the part of the player. So this could be clipping combined with animations that look more sexual than they'd actually be if the characters were positioned differently. (This is sort of like if you named the main character "Sexy" and then noted how every NPC in the game said things like "Hey, sexy"... that's not exactly something the ESRB needs to take into consideration.)
3) The clip is so blurry that it serves more as an electronic ink-blot test. "What do you see 58 seconds into the video?" "I see a blowjob." "Well, then clearly you have unresolved issues with your father-figure." "Thanks, doc!"

Since overt sexual content simply doesn't fit into the context of the rest of the game, I highly doubt it was purpusefully designed into FF8.

Oh, and just to muddle things further -- this is just before (and at the start of) the concert, right? Where you see one of many possible cutscenes depending on what choices you made earlier in the game? So it's possible that even if this WERE overtly sexual, that you'd only see it by making very specific choices up till then, and now we're talking about half a second of sex content buried in 200+ hours of gameplay?

I think that comparing this with Hot Coffee is hyperbole. Hot Coffee was an extended, interactive, overt sex game in an otherwise violent and sexual backdrop. This is nowhere near that intensity; if I were to compare it to anything, I'd compare it to the Disney scandal after The Little Mermaid came to video, where the priest supposedly sported an erection for all of three animation frames.

If anyone sees some obvious slutty filth in that clip that I missed, can you please point it out to me?


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Posted by craigp on 12-08-2005 08:41 PM:

I didn't even see the one you're mentioning.

Frankly, the whole thing is silly.

-Craig


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Adrian Lopez on 12-08-2005 10:30 PM:

Ian,

I don't see what navgtr is seeing either, but there's one point in your post which I feel is worth addressing:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by IanSchreiber
So it's possible that even if this WERE overtly sexual, that you'd only see it by making very specific choices up till then, and now we're talking about half a second of sex content buried in 200+ hours of gameplay?

I think that comparing this with Hot Coffee is hyperbole. Hot Coffee was an extended, interactive, overt sex game in an otherwise violent and sexual backdrop.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Are you suggesting that even if the conent in FF7 "were overtly sexual" it would be less significant than Hot Coffee because "you'd only see it by making very specific choices up till then"? Keep in mind that Hot Coffee isn't actually part of GTA gameplay. There is no way to see the Hot Coffee scene in GTA without hacking it, so even "very specific choices" won't be enough to reveal the content.
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(Reply to this)

Here is part 2 of the IGDA message board discussion:
(Anonymous)
2005-12-10 03:42 am UTC (link)
Posted by IanSchreiber on 12-08-2005 11:20 PM:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you suggesting that even if the conent in FF7 "were overtly sexual" it would be less significant than Hot Coffee because "you'd only see it by making very specific choices up till then"? Keep in mind that Hot Coffee isn't actually part of GTA gameplay. There is no way to see the Hot Coffee scene in GTA without hacking it, so even "very specific choices" won't be enough to reveal the content.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I was trying to say that it would be less significant because:
* FF8: about half a second of content; GTA: several minutes of content.
* FF8: passive cutscene; GTA: fully interactive gameplay.
* FF8: easy to miss even if you see it, partly because you're not expecting it because of the greater context of the game; GTA: bleedingly obvious when you see it, absolutely no way anyone would mistake it for anything other than what it was.

I was trying to make a secondary point, that apparently was muddled with my first point but should have been totally separate:
Even if the FF8 content was "bad", I can understand how it could be easily missed by the ESRB due to the huge piles of other content it's buried in. (To be fair, one can say similar things about GTA since it did still require a hack to activate. I don't blame the ESRB for missing that one, either.)

Hope that clears things up.


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Posted by Adrian Lopez on 12-09-2005 12:01 AM:

Thanks for the clarification, Ian.

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Posted by Adrian Lopez on 12-09-2005 12:09 AM:

I've prepared a slowed down version of the relevant section of the video.

Navgtr: do you think you could make a full resolution version of the section I've isolated?

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Posted by craigp on 12-09-2005 12:34 AM:

Heh, okay, that's kind of funny. But it's obviously an animation placed out of context.

-Craig


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Adrian Lopez on 12-09-2005 12:46 AM:

Something to consider: pareidolia

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[info]demon_jd
2005-12-10 03:42 am UTC (link)
Wait, wait... People thought, seriously thought, that Rinoa was giving Irvine head? Clearly, these people have never actually gotten head, or they would know it doesn't really happen that fast. Did she use magic to undo his pants? She's laughing. Seriously, are people looking for this kind of thing?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Not That Fast!
(Anonymous)
2005-12-10 03:49 am UTC (link)
Uh... just because it happens too fast with fully clothed characters doesn't mean a thing. GTA's sex was fully clothed. If it's meant to go unseen, I hardly think they would try to be accurate. In the 30's and 40's, people were having sex in the movies all the time with their clothes on, but people still accepted what was going on. Game developers are sort of in the same situation... but worse! Even fully clothed sex is now taboo!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Not That Fast! - [info]demon_jd, 2005-12-10 07:17 am UTC
Here is part 3 of the IGDA message board discussion:
(Anonymous)
2005-12-10 03:43 am UTC (link)
Posted by navgtr on 12-09-2005 06:37 AM:
Sex in My Grilled Cheese

Okay, guys, I don't see the Virgin Mary in my grilled cheese. The game automatically walks Rinoa over to the spot from which she bends over, not the player, and if her automatic trajectory is thrown off by PRIOR player movement, that would be awfully coincidental considering that Irvine's dialogue of "Geez... thanks a lot!" does not seem to refer to what they were just talking about. It seems like it only refers to the blow job.

The original footage is VHS. I transferred directly to AVI. Then I encoded that to both a 384kbps WMV and a 1400kbps WMV which is 20MB! I could send you a disc, I suppose.

I agree with Ian's other points but he is missing other important considerations:

1. GTA is a mature product, so THAT'S where this type of content is insignificant compared to the rest of the game which is already identified on the ORIGINAL rating for its "strong sexual content."

2. Parents and politicians don't care. One second of sex is enough. We impeached a President and we didn't even have any video --- just a stain.

3. This is not an isolated piece of sexual content in Final Fantasy VIII! In this same footage Irvine leaves a pornographic magazine for Squall as a joke to try to get him and Rinoa to "let it all out tonight."

4. The ESRB rated FF8 for "Animated Violence,Mild Language,Suggestive Themes!!!!"

5. The ESRB also rated the Final Fantasy VIII - Interactive Demo Included in Brave Fencer Musashi Package. Guess what? They gave it an "M" rating. Gee, what ELSE was in Final Fantasy VIII that got cut before final release? Brave Fencer Musashi was rated "E" and it included an "M" demo! Yeah... let's see if anyone can pull that off now without Joe Lieberman commenting.

6. I am not at all condemning the content or the rating. I don't think the ESRB should have to be responsible for 200 hours of content, and I don't think it's fair for politicians to expect and require that ANYONE be responsible for labeling every tit, nipple, and devilish grin in these giant worlds, many of which are player controlled in what is supposed to be a FREE COUNTRY and should not be shuddering in fear from politicians as a result.

7. There will never be a system that works for games as well as the MPAA works for movies. They can't find fucking weapons of mass destruction and they expect us to find CJ fucking his girlfriend? They expect perfection in an impossible situation and if it doesn't happen there are congressional investigations!!! This is patently unfair, wrong, and extremely hypocritical. Eyes Wide Shut is appropriate for 17, but GTA is not!!!! You can buy Eyes Wide Shut at Wal-Mart but they have to pull GTA! Crazy! And we let the politicians get away with crucifying us for this just because we weren't lucky enough to have Tom Cruise's animated character humping his girlfriend instead! Give me a break! I'm sick of the video game industry being demonized and held to a double standard.

My point in this whole mess is to show that the ESRB should not have buckled to political pressures. Instead, we're all licking our wounds and being pissed off at Rockstar (fine), but I've heard absolutely zero discussion about the possibility that Rockstar wasn't lying in their first denial. The VIP's honestly may not have known about the content, and the programmers who put it in there may have just kept their mouths shut until finally someone confessed to the Rockstar VIP's. One programmer could have gotten pissed at another for getting a bigger raise/stealing his girlfriend/telling a fellow employee he was gay/you-name-it... and decided to stab him in the back by telling the boss what he knew. How do we know this isn't just as plausible as the idea that Rockstar is just evil and doesn't care about the industry and all this baloney?

So rather than debate the real issue of governmental interference/influence with an independent body that DID ITS JOB CORRECTLY THE FIRST TIME, we actually allowed them to subvert our system, not to label something that wasn't already labeled for its "strong sexual content," BUT TO SCORE POLITICAL POINTS IN THE NEWS MEDIA DAYS LATER and further erode the freedoms of creative people.

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Re: Here is part 3 of the IGDA message board discussion:
(Anonymous)
2005-12-17 10:41 am UTC (link)
Can I just say one thing. I've only skim read the article and peoples comments (sorry I'm rushing) but I needed to correct this. Irvine's line: "Geeze, thanks a lot!" is sarcasm. He's saying that in response to Rinoa LAUGHING because they interrupted him and Selphie, and that caused Selphie to leave. I don't see what's so hard about that to understand. Like I'm sure loads of people have said before me, if you believe this, then in my opinion, 'you' are looking for something that didn't happen.

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[info]timbo1138
2005-12-10 03:44 am UTC (link)
Something I don't think anyone's pointed out yet is that this sounds like it's completly out of context for a sex act, story-wise (I haven't actually watched the video yet, downloading something else just at the moment...) I mean, does it even make any sense under normal circumstances for three people to be having a conversation, and then for the girl to, for no apparant reason, bend down and engage in an act of wanton naughtiness for a couple of seconds? Um, not really. Yeah, yeah, those wacky Japanese, those evil pornographers masquerading as game developers...

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]timbo1138
2005-12-10 04:41 am UTC (link)
Just watched it. And to anyone who thinks it's sexual, give me a freakin' break. You've got to be kidding.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


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