Game Politics ([info]gamepolitics) wrote,
@ 2005-11-02 06:50:00
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More MMO Deaths Reported in China

If Chinese news reports are to be believed, these corpse runs were real.

As reported previously on GamePolitics, online game addiction is somewhat of a national concern in the People's Republic of China. Reports that two MMO players have died are only increasing worries about the effects of gaming addiction there.

In one case, a young female World of Warcraft player whose avatar was named "Snowly" reportedly died after a WoW binge that lasted several days. The official language describing Snowly's demise is revealing:

"Snowly's friends, who share the same game community, say that Snowly was a very diligent member and a key official of their community, who was always connected to the Internet."

We might say that "Snowly's guildies say she was an officer who was on 24x7 and always willing to jump in on a Molten Core run."

As related by Xinhua, several days before her death, Snowly was preparing for a "relatively difficult part of the game and had very little rest. She told her friends that she felt very tired."

An online funeral commemorating Snowled was marred by the death of another WoW player named "Nan Ren Gu Shi." A timing system mandated by Chinese officials went into effect on October 20th, limiting players to a three-hour gaming limit.




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[info]layer_09
2005-11-02 12:12 pm UTC (link)
I'd hate to think that this was a result of her having to wait the 2 hours cooldown, everytime her 3 hours were up. Therefore causing her to stay up even longer to do what she could have done in less time had they not implemented the timing system. :(

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Speculation....
[info]nightwng2000
2005-11-02 12:26 pm UTC (link)
... won't do any good. We could argue more/less play time and more/less cooldown time. I could, for example, say 8 hours cooldown time ("go to bed!") for every 6 hours of play.

But none of that takes into account individual limits on the body system.

I'm not into online games really, but if an addiction can get this bad... Then again, any addiction can get this bad. And yes, I also recognize the "only 1 in so-many-thousands" rule too.

I just don't know if there is any reasonable way to make it better, and safer, for everyone.

nightwng2000

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Interesting
[info]thetwodud
2005-11-02 12:46 pm UTC (link)
You mean, young females actually play WoW? (Yes, I know that was sterotypical, but I was kidding, let it slide)

Odd it is, however, that China made restrictions against addiction and overplayed, and then two people died of exactly that. Now, if I were to guess, they will become stricter, so will more restrictions = more incidents? Are they being unfair and oppresive? (....on second thought, don't answer that, I already know.)

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Re: Interesting
[info]leyviur
2005-11-02 02:30 pm UTC (link)
Don't knock it until you've tried it. I actually live in China, so naturally I'd know more about this stuff. Stereotyping annoys me.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter what laws they actually put into effect; the gaming population will find some way around it. The problem is not the law, it's the people who DO NOTHING BUT PLAY GAMES. Jesus Christ, I write about games on a public site and even I'm not that obsessed. Some of the people here are borderline batshit insane over these MMOs. As much as I like to call some Americans nerds for FFXI drama, people dying over WoW is even worse.

What the fuck, people. There's this thing called 'outside.'

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Re: Interesting
(Anonymous)
2005-11-20 09:46 am UTC (link)
I've read at least two Chinese articles that say Snowly was a guy. Since you live in China, I wonder if your local papers mentioned anything like that when this was first reported?

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Re: Interesting
(Anonymous)
2005-11-21 08:31 am UTC (link)
你是中国人/外国人在中国?

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[info]chenry
2005-11-02 01:32 pm UTC (link)
go outside for once

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[info]oz_the_geek
2005-11-02 06:01 pm UTC (link)
I'm a WoW player, and I approve of this message.

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[info]chenry
2005-11-02 06:18 pm UTC (link)
everyone needs sunlit once and a while.

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[info]premo_maggot
2005-11-02 08:03 pm UTC (link)
http://www.sunlitgames.net/

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[info]chenry
2005-11-02 08:10 pm UTC (link)
hah hah, nice.

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[info]premo_maggot
2005-11-03 12:43 am UTC (link)
;p

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Go outside for once
[info]the1jeffy
2005-11-02 06:11 pm UTC (link)
I dont't want to, it's bright and there are wild bugs and potentially precipitation of some kind! Plus the natural sunlight blinds my weak eyes and burns my pasty skin!

Seriously though, I hate this kind of story, because it ruins the reputation of us not crazy MMORPG players. I play WoW, I have a great job, a social life, and I "go outside" occasionally. This is just another example of blaming blantant stupidity on video games instead of people who actually do the stupid action.

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Re: Go outside for once
[info]chenry
2005-11-02 06:18 pm UTC (link)
stupid people ruin it for other people.

i don't play MMORPGs, but i've gotten into marathon sessions too. I played the Sims for almost 24 hours once. That was kinda dumb, i spent a day simulating a life instead of actually doing stuff.

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Re: Go outside for once
(Anonymous)
2005-11-02 07:42 pm UTC (link)
[i]I play WoW, I have a great job, a social life, and I "go outside" occasionally.[/i]

is that inside or outside of the game? :)

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Re: Go outside for once
[info]the1jeffy
2005-11-02 09:56 pm UTC (link)
aww you busted me . . . ;P

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[info]ioncow00
2005-11-02 01:56 pm UTC (link)
Maybe it's not true. Maybe it's just fabricated to justify the new laws.

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[info]another_neko
2005-11-02 02:39 pm UTC (link)
So if you're on for 3 hrs and the 20 seconds it takes to log off sometimes.... what would happen?

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[info]trooper6
2005-11-02 05:47 pm UTC (link)
That's the thing, with the last fellow who died by playing the MMO for 48 hours straight (being up 48 hours straight is something as a grad student I do sadly...with too much frequency) there was no autopsy to determine cause of death, there was also some question as to whether the person actually existed.

I'm very skeptical of these reports. I want to hear reporting on the coroner's reports giving a reason why these people died...and if there were, for example, amphetimines or other drugs in their system.

The whole thing sounds very suspicious to me. And no, not because it is China...if the exact same report came out about a German gamer or an American gamer...or whatever, with just as little information--including for example full real names--I'd be just as skeptical.

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(Anonymous)
2005-11-02 06:52 pm UTC (link)
I agree, I would like more infromation on this as well. I mean, my friends and I would stay up 5 days before finals cramming every last bit of caffeine and precalc into our bodies that we could.
Besides, where were these peoples familes and friends while they were ODing on MMORPGs? Don't you think they might have called or come over? The girls friends said she always sounded tired, why didn't they insist she go to bed once in a while? Where was she getting the money for WoW if she was constantly on it? There are alot of questions ~shrug~ not enough answers. Till the answers actually happen I'm going to stick my fingers in my ears and pretend this didn't happen :D

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[info]another_neko
2005-11-02 06:52 pm UTC (link)
I agree, I would like more infromation on this as well. I mean, my friends and I would stay up 5 days before finals cramming every last bit of caffeine and precalc into our bodies that we could.
Besides, where were these peoples familes and friends while they were ODing on MMORPGs? Don't you think they might have called or come over? The girls friends said she always sounded tired, why didn't they insist she go to bed once in a while? Where was she getting the money for WoW if she was constantly on it? There are alot of questions ~shrug~ not enough answers. Till the answers actually happen I'm going to stick my fingers in my ears and pretend this didn't happen :D

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[info]monsterhouse
2005-11-03 09:43 am UTC (link)
It's possible that privacy laws prevent certain information from being released. I have no idea what sort of media regulation is in place in China right now, but, for instance, it was common practice (law in some places) in early America to lie about the cause of death (like saying a man died from Absynthe instead of syphillis) in order to protect the privacy of the family and "shield" the public. To this day, touchy subjects like teen suicide are often given delicate alterations in America, if even reported at all.

So, let's assume she died of malnutrition and overexertion -- the reports make it sound like she did this sort of thing all the time. If the public reports link her death to WoW, there is a reduced possibility that the family would be shamed for not caring for her. Saying she literally "played the game to death" means it was her conscious choice and it is easier to infer that she refused intervention from family and friends. Putting the quotes from her online friends in makes it sound even more like that was the case, since they seem appraising of her near-constant presence.

Like I said, I've got no idea what things are like in that sense over there right now.. but it's a possibility. I suppose it could be possible to search around and see if anyone online can actually attest to this character's existence -- if she really was online all the time, several people would have had to notice her, you know? (A terribly time-consuming task, however.. lots of guesswork.)

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[info]teh_anonymous
2005-11-02 06:58 pm UTC (link)
"This is just another example of blaming blantant stupidity on video games instead of people who actually do the stupid action."

See, no. It's all a "cause and effect", the effect being the players' death. The only difference is whether you believe the cause was the players' inherent potential for video game addiction or elements of the video game itself. I would postulate that WoW, a game that (unlike, say, GuildWars) depends on people playing continuously and paying monthly fees would be itnerested in providing things to keep the player constantly occupied with something. As such, if you were even potentially inclined to "over-do" the game, you are screwed.

Is China's new law a definitive answer? Probably not. Is taking an "all or nothing"/"black and white" stance on this issue productive? Definetly not. I would like to imagine that in the future MMOs come with a sort of Rochester test that can roughly determine a player's potential for "mis-using" the game and warn the player before he creates an account as to abolish any legal or social repercussions against the game creator. But for now that's just wishful thinking.

-Anonymous-

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Responsibility
(Anonymous)
2005-11-02 07:28 pm UTC (link)
Hey yeah, while we're at it, lets test everyone who turns of age for potential addiction to alchohol. And sex. And work. And church. And water-polo. And all the things people sometimes get addicted to and hurt themselves or others with.

The fact is, people are responsible for their own actions and if this girl existed (which I doubt), the problem was her, not the medium. Perhaps WoW could set up a monitor that notices when a character has been logged on more than 24 out of any given 32 hour period and log them out for a time. Might cut down server crowding and stop power-levelling services in addition to forcing people to sleep. On the other hand I don't believe its their responsibility or that it would help. Buy two accounts and bounce back and forth. Alternate between different MMOs. The same way an alcoholic can buy listerine if he has no access to booze, someone who wants to waste away on games will make it happen. Nothing in the game is physically addicting, or even psychologically addicting in the clinical sense. If this is real (which again I doubt) then its the responsibility of individuals, not Blizzard, not the government of China.

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[info]andrew_eisen
2005-11-02 07:44 pm UTC (link)
Game packages already include health and safety manuals. They all warn about motion sickness, electric shock, epileptic seizures, and the importance of taking breaks.

Avoid excessive play. It is recommended that parents monitor their children for appropriate play.
Take a 10 to 15 minute break every hour, even if you don't think you need it.
If your hands, wrists, arms or eyes become tired or sore while playing, stop and rest them for several hours before playing again.
If you continue to have sore hands, wrists, arms or eyes during or after play, stop playing and see a doctor.


Personally, I think that’s plenty.


Andrew Eisen

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[info]aresef
2005-11-02 10:38 pm UTC (link)
And before logging into Final Fantasy XI, there's a disclaimer reminding players not to Mijin Gakure their social lives (my words, not theirs).

I need to play less FFXI. :P

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[info]trooper6
2005-11-02 10:33 pm UTC (link)
First we don't know if these nameless people exist.

We don't know if the cause of death was playing MMORPG's too long, or overdosing on upppers in order to stay up for long stretches of time.

There's a lot we don't know.

But, as a WoW player, I feel like WoW doesn't actually encourage you to play continuously...at least it doesn't encourage me to play continuously...why? Here's why. When you are off line, you gain a time period for which when you are on line again, you get double xp for killing monsters. The minute I use up that double xp time...I feel like I should log off and come back the next day so that I continue to get the well-rested bonus. Sometimes I play for long stretches of time...but when I lose my well-rested double xp bonus I start feeling the need to log off for a day or so so I can get it back again.

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Well...
[info]repsode
2005-11-02 11:29 pm UTC (link)
the MMO issue has raged for some time in South east Asia, WOW never created that. And it's not just China. A good six months back I heard about a couple in South Korea who was so addicted to an MMO(which was unnamed) that they would leave their baby OUTSIDE the cyber cafe for 3-4 hours at a time. the kid subsequently died(possibly malnourishnent or, who knows, murder by a passer by. As was said there is too little to go on but seeing how these cases are more common than murder due to video games, there is enough to worry about. The region is the most online equipped in the world and the MMO scene is REALLY INSANELY big.
On WOW, I agree. The game indeed encourages downtime through short-term double xp, but that would never put off players weened on the all-weeker(Really can anyone play that long?)on other games. If they can't control themselves then maybe regulation needs to be put in place. Who needs to spend more than 3 hours to acheive something in WOW?

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Re: Well...
[info]trooper6
2005-11-03 02:15 am UTC (link)
Why spend more than three hours playing WoW? Why not?

I spend 3 hours doing lots of things. Sometimes I go jogging for more than three hours. I sometimes practice the banjo for more than three hours. When I was taking my PhD qualifying exams and had to write three 15 page research papers in 7 days, I spent those 7 days getting little sleep and most of it behind my computer screen typing like a madman. I spend more than three hours on the phone. I spend more than three hours reading. When I was in the Army I had 24 hour guard duty, and sometimes I had to strait into my normal duty shift after that.

If I want to spend time doing whatever it is I want to do, it is my right to do so. The government should not be regulating my private life. We live in a society where people regularly spend 8+ hours behind a computer screen at work...people don't die from word processing binges. These supposed MMO deaths are being used as reason to limit people's personal freedoms...and these deaths may not even be factual.

I heard about that poor kid who died...but that a three hour limit on MMO's wouldn't have stopped the kid from being abandoned for three hour stretches. Those parents were bad parents...they should be prosecuted for it...but the MMO didn't make them bad parents. There have been numerous reports here in the US of parents who left their small children outside in cars for hours while they grocery shopped or did whatever and then those kids died of heat exhaustion...should we ban cars? or grocery shopping.

This MMO hysteria sounds a lot like the anti-rock'n'roll hysteria from the 50s.



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Re: Well...
[info]repsode
2005-11-03 05:32 pm UTC (link)
They were procescuted successfully for negelgence. You're right it's not MMO's that are the problem, but the person playing it. The question is how can it be resolved, and personally I would have thought China would have banned MMOs outright, Strangely lenient on this issue.

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Re: Well...
[info]trooper6
2005-11-04 07:23 am UTC (link)
You are very right, that couple was prosecuted for negligence and rightly so! And you are right again...I am also surprised that China hasn't banned the MMO...but on the other hand banning things outright usually just drives things underground where you can't controll them. (Think Prohibition in the States). So maybe they are taking the wiser strategy of throwing lots of regulation at it.

I'm interested in seeing not only how the MMO thing shakes down in China, but the related issues in other countries: frex. how will US society deal with the current political pressure around violent and sexual video games? Will Australia stop the more or less censorship of mature video games?

We live in interesting times indeed!

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i got a solution
[info]evirustheslaye
2005-11-03 03:02 am UTC (link)
a device for their version that is required to log in.... one of those BMI mechines that measures different things in your body, if somethings not right, like your matabolic rates are too low, it wont log in and desplay a map to the nearest restruant

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[info]rachelo
2005-11-03 05:16 am UTC (link)
Huh. Two people out of one billion, three hundred million.

Still, I realize addiction is a serious thing. It just sucks that the government would impose regulations (or find an excuse to impose regulations).

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[info]prawninator
2005-11-03 06:20 am UTC (link)
You know, not the entire Chinese population play WoW. Or MMO's for that matter.

It COULD only be two people, but it IS two human beings. Two live people that DIED while playing a game. It's not an excuse, it's PRECAUTION. And I agree with what they are doing. If they don't have the discipline to do it themselves, then SOMEONE has to do it, and in this case, it's the Chinese government.

Have you gone into Ironforge yet and NOT see people in the trade channel in very broken English or in Hanyu Pinyin? Have you NOT seen avatars with Chinese names? "Nan Ren Gu Shi" (Story of A Man) is not a name just anyone would adopt, considering it's quite obscure to the conventional "Xiao" names.

I don't blame you for being sceptical, but it MUST be a growing problem, or the government won't step in, and the case would be written off as trivial. Maybe an increasing rise in truancy? More and more kids who are ill because of malnutrition? It could be various reasons.

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[info]rachelo
2005-11-03 06:37 am UTC (link)
As I said, I realize addiction is a serious thing. I don't play online games so I'll take your word about the Chinese names. The girl's family and "friends" should have recognized her problem and intervened. Government-imposed regulation is just a bandage on the real problem, and that is that some people are more prone to addiction than others. I still believe moderation is something everyone has to learn for themselves.

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[info]prawninator
2005-11-03 07:26 am UTC (link)
And some people, as evident due to their loss of life, can't "learn for themselves". Therefore intervention.

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[info]rachelo
2005-11-03 07:44 am UTC (link)
There is no single solution to everyone's problems. The addicts will remain addicted until THEY choose to admit they have a problem. It's a time-proven fact as old as AA.

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(Anonymous)
2005-11-03 10:06 am UTC (link)
So what is it about the Asian culture that makes them want to game to death? I play alot of WoW yes but I still work, sleep, and go out. Probally raid 15 hours a week over 7 days but these people stay up for days. Don't think it is the game cause it happened before WoW so is it a cultural/society issue I am not aware of as I have never lived there?

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[info]gamepolitics
2005-11-03 10:40 am UTC (link)
There are certainly game addicts in the US. At least one highly-publicized case committed suicice. But he was known to have other issues, broken home, serious depression, etc.

And to be honest, these death stories are never fully fleshed out and details are impossible because they are so far away, and in China's case, in a place where freedom of the press is not a key value.

Did the person have an existing health problem, drug use, suicidal, etc.?

We just don't know...

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[info]trooper6
2005-11-04 07:52 am UTC (link)
You know, I'm reminded of the reported D&D deaths back in the 80s. Highly publicized folks who commited suicide because of D&D...or died in sewers...much later it came out that not one of these was caused by D&D. Some of the deaths never happened at all, and the others turned out to be about something way different that D&D.

The rhetoric I'm hearing about the MMOs sounds so much like the D&D hysteria from back in the early 80s. And let me tell you...I certainly did the Jolt cola and Cheetos weekend of gaming. (No one died by the way).

People often die playing school football. We don't ban school football. People often die from drinking alcohol at frat parties...banning alcohol didn't work out well for us in the 20's and the federal government hasn't banned frats.

People die doing lots of things. A lot more than the three questionably true cases of WoW deaths in China.

The whole thing gives me deja vu and creeps me right out.

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[info]darth_fishy
2005-11-03 11:30 am UTC (link)
Good point. To what degree is gaming addictive? And to what degree does this hold a danger for gamers?

My question is, where does the responsibility lie? MMO are designed to be, if not addictive, then at least re-playable. Does some of the responsibility thus lie with the game developers? Should game developers build in mechanisms to prevent addiction (like the double XP time mentioned earlier)?

These questions, as well as the general ranting about games, and violence in games, has led me to create the following lj community [info]game_ethics to discuss and debate issues such as this.

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...
(Anonymous)
2005-11-04 03:55 am UTC (link)
I would like to know if this has been fact checked before I would make any firm conclusions.

That being said I do know some nuts on my server, Americans, who seem to be playing all the time, and when you hear them on TS or Ventrilo they sound highly stressed, can't seem to listen to reason. Complete nutters

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Re: ...
[info]gamepolitics
2005-11-04 10:12 am UTC (link)
As far as fact-checked, not by GP...

And I am always a little skeptical of Chinese media reports concerning games. I think I mentioned that somewhere else in comments...

The thing is, people die - from existing medical conditions that their online buds probably know nothing about, from traffic accidents, from drug overdoses, etc.

I would like to hear of such a case in the US or another free press nation where a definitive post-mortem could be made.

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[info]samrijdiwzrdfoo
2005-11-04 06:29 am UTC (link)
I'm terribly sorry to hear about this. I think WoW is an awesome game, and to think that it had to do with the death of any young person breaks my heart.

However, the thing to think about here is not how bad WoW is. it's about learning your own limits. I went on a couple of gaming binges once, and it was no good. I'm lucky i caught myself when i did, and with the support of friends. But, i don't think that this should condemn the game. The problems is with the gamer, not the game itself.

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[info]theparable
2005-11-04 07:45 pm UTC (link)
How mentally insane would you have to be to not understand that sleeping and eating is important, to the point that you died? If anyone did this, playing an online game or not...it's either crazy or suicidal, and she easily could've died doing something else too...but that's juat my opinion.

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(Anonymous)
2005-11-20 09:44 am UTC (link)
"How mentally insane would you have to be to not understand that sleeping and eating is important, to the point that you died?"

That's rhetorical, right?

As a gamer myself, sometimes I forget to eat or sleep too.

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